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Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

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Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#91
No one wants to train new employees. It is expensive.

I totally disagree with the filter. I don't want employees that aren't going to tough it out and quit mid-project either. That isn't what we are talking about though. We are talking about people that probably switched jobs for any number of reasons. Not hiring someone just because they switched jobs or independently consulted, that seems so arbitrary it is almost comical.

It really is a two way street. I worked at a place that had 98% employee retention for multiple years through the boom. Almost everyone there was heavily recruited and almost no one left. Even the people that were previously independent consultants and the ones that had job hopped. Why? It was a great place to work with above average compensation and awesome people to work with.

My point is that if you compensate people well and you provide a great place to work you don't have to filter for potential job hoppers. You are then free to filter for the important things like work ethic, aptitude, skill, and fitting in.

Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#92

at last years startup school this became a bit of a topic, zappos talked about how they wanted employees to work there and feel valued for life. mark zuckerberg talked about how he was happy creating a culture where great people should be able to come in, start being effective immediately, and move along after a year or so. paul buckheit mentioned his reason for quitting google, it was basically, because you need to…

Best companies to work for (see footnote) are the ones that treat their former employees as alumni, rather than as traitors. I was extremely nervous during my last job transition, given I've only stayed there for a year and likely caused them headache during my initial recruitment, dealing with multiple offers and many sleepless nights.

To my surprise, they not only took me out for a going away lunch, they even paid for it. While a job transition is stressful, professional treatment at exit does re-inforce goodwill (which is already earned: kind treatment on the way out, implies kind treatment while I worked there). I still endorse their products (on technical merits) and talk to my former coworkers there.

At the exit interview with my then-manager (who, by the way is great), I expressed my regrets at leaving so soon. While he was understandably upset, he mentioned that while short stints will close some doors, loyalty isn't an end to itself; he found that many candidates that stayed 15+ year for most of their career weren't very impressive during interviews.

Obviously, I think there are exceptions to this rule: if you're lucky to join a place with a strong hacker culture (e.g., Google, PARC, Bell Labs, Sun, Yahoo, IBM, Microsoft etc...) at the right time and on the right team, there's good chance you will be able to do rewarding work for a long time. However, the name alone is never a guarantee (there are plenty of non-interesting but business-crucial projects at these companies e.g., not everyone can work on Search or GMail at Google), nor do these companies last forever (as Sun's decay exemplified).

On the other hand, if you systematically stay for less than a year at various jobs (particularly at companies with longer development cycles e.g., bigger companies, or start-ups still in product-development phase), you might never get a chance to complete (or even undertake) challenging and rewarding projects.

This can lead to a vicious cycle: you will your work is always unrewarding (as you'll never stay long enough to either reap the rewards of the work or even receive challenging projects in the first place) tempting you to change jobs again. At the same time doors begin to close: the stigma of "job hopping" (Silicon Valley tech companies can understand 4 jobs in 5 years, 10 jobs in 10 years is a more serious red flag), lack of age-appropriate experience, confidence and leadership skills that come from finishing projects and shipping products, and "burned bridges" due to upset coworkers (who else would serve as your references?). In the end, you're ending up with progressively worse options.

There's a balance. If you're happy with the job, are learning and find the work itself rewarding, don't actively "go on the market". Don't leave before you get a chance to learn anything. However, once you feel you're either no longer learning anything new, or have not learned anything new at all after a year, do something. As I've mentioned in another comment, bring it up with leads/management first (something I regret not having done twice in my career): a manager will likely not realize you're underused and unhappy (provided you act in a professional manner and still do the job asked of you), many companies are open to internal transfers (most notably, but not exclusively, Google); furthermore this avoids the ambiguity of counter-offer (are they doing this because you've "put a gun to their head" and simply need you to finish a project, or are they genuinely interested in your success?) and stigma/un-professionalism of accepting one.

Choose your jobs carefully: is the focus of the company aligned with your interests, is the product valuable to you (e.g., if you don't understand the value of recreational social networking, Facebook -- otherwise a great company -- may not be a good place to work), will I be able to keep up with the greater technology curve in my specialty area, will I be able to learn new concepts (and not just new technologies), is the engineering team strong and influential? Don't optimize prematurely for salary and title (if your title is too senior, you might not receive the needed amount of mentoring or the chance to be a protege), don't guess whether or not you'll get rich from the stock options (if you're actually great at guessing the value of stock, consider a career as an investor), while you should know how long the company will be able to pay you (given their current burn rate) don't stress over current or rumored layoffs (I've declined two very interesting offers in Summer/Fall 2008 due to recent/possible layoffs, I grew to regret it. Is your most interesting offer from Yahoo? Then take it and ignore that Techcrunch and Gawker say!

Don't just shop your resume around, focus on a few positions that interest you and apply just to them. Don't limit yourself only to start-ups or only to Fortune-500 companies; don't just limit yourself only to the two extremes, with the exclusion of medium sized companies which often have the benefits of both start-ups and big companies, pay more fairly than both and give equity that may not be life changing, but is actually worth something (I'm biased, as I work at one such company). There are teams within big companies that exhibit the positive aspects of a start-up (2-3 people working on a project, each owning a significant chunk), there are start-ups which exhibit the negative aspects of big companies (outdated technology, mediocre technical teams, all technical decisions being made by non-technical management). In some cases, start-ups live up more or just as much to big company stereotypes than do advanced technology companies: open floor plans are almost universal (big companies go for cubes or offices shared by developers), use of Blub languages, non-technical professional CEOs running the show, projects generally consisting of putting a UI on top of buggy code written by somebody else (e.g., API mash-ups, Facebook apps, CRUD applications). The ones that stand out from that (at least in some respect) are the ones likely to be great (compare this job posting http://groups.google.com/group/mi.jobs/msg/d81b6c1fa8f361fc?... with the average "2+ years of RoR, Flash, HTML, Javascript and MySQL" one).

Ask "will this job be valuable to me even if I don't stay there for a long time?", as chances are one that's valuable for two years is also valuable for five. If it fails after the two years, but the environment stimulated you to do great work, you'll not only walk away with knowledge but with respect of peers who will be ready to refer you to other jobs. Accept that you will make mistakes, be ready to (carefully and patiently) correct them and learn from them.

(footnote) Since the original article was prompted by Jason Calacanis' reaction to an employee leaving Mahalo -- his start-up -- to join Yahoo, I should note (to those in the Web 2.0 "reality distortion field") Yahoo still counts as a best place to work amongst the Fortune 500 (my first job out of college and also my longest stint as a full time employee) and Mahalo doesn't. Somebody leaving a hyped company to join one that is going through a difficult time to do work they find meaningful and interesting is someone I'd like to hire even if they have a few 11 month stints on their resume.

Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Nobody wants to work for a) peanuts or b) evil spammers. Life's too short. I suspect it's probably happened to Calcanis before, which is why he's going nutso on Twitter. Solution: If you want people to stay at your company, then pay them reasonable amounts and don't be a dickhead.

Yeah, anecdotally, I've found that if your company is doing things that the general public (or at least, the peers of your employees) considers vaguely sketchy, it's best to counter it by getting a reputation as a great place to work. Zynga is a decent example: there is plenty of negative press about it, but none of the negative press is about working there, since by all accounts they treat their employees very well.

I had a think about this on the train on the way home, and here's the formula that I've come up with.

Assuming that your employees aren't clueless (ie. know their market rate) and are free to leave (eg. not family members or H1-Bs), then you'll see significant employee churn if:

                  asshattery
  $ 
It seems to hold for most of the cases that I can think of.

Apple, for example, has a high asshattery factor (Steve Jobs) and market rate (they want awesome people) but also has a huge cool factor to balance it out somewhat (I heard they pay ~1.5x market).

Banks, Traders, Insurance companies, etc. have low cool factor, so they have to make it up with large salaries and perks and not be too toxic to work at.

In the case of Mahalo, it seems like they have a large asshattery factor (Calcanis is an overbearing idiot who will post nasty things about you on Twitter), and cool factor and (it seems) they pay below market rates, so it's not suprising that they're seeing lots of "job hoppers".

Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#94
post #9

So this essay is an expansion of http://twitter.com/Jason/status/12621363849 which is almost certainly a response to http://pastebin.com/PSY4iYZ0 If you can't keep your talent as an employer, that's your fault. Berating them for taking care of themselves is immature. Welcome to capitalism, you make money off them and they're free to take the best offer on the table. As an employer, I prefer have people with many job…

Yesss. Thank you for turning it around.

I "hopped" my first 3 jobs because my employers seemed bound & determined to wreck their companies, and me with them.

It's not MY fault that they were too gutless to fire the "expert" who spent his whole day nagging me for help, and who used raise_error() as GOTO. And who earned $15k/yr more than me, I knew, thanks to the H1-B notice posted in the kitchen.

It's not MY fault they joked about how this client (MY client) was a sociopath who called people and ranted at them at 3am, and then expected me to give him my cell phone number.

It's not MY fault that my boss had a tantrum in a meeting, screamed at people, then busted up a printer in a rage.

It's not MY fault that the CEO constantly derailed our projects and everybody stuck around only because of the golden handcuffs, but I was tired of being demoralized and feeling like I wasn't earning my pay.

I did my best for every employer I ever had, and they never did the same for me. To the contrary.

Maybe he just doesn't want to hire job-hoppers because they have a sense of self-respect.

Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#95

Well the article assumes that structuring my life so people like the author can have the warm fuzzies when looking at my cv is a priority for me. What I look for in a job is autonomy, great co-workers and interesting work. The moment any of these decline, I leave. Why should I stick on to a dead end job because someday some fellow like the author might not like my cv? Do what makes sense to you at each decision point…

Keep in mind his own experience and the sort of company he started. He was a consultant at Accenture and then started a company making a business application (Koral, a CMS) which he sold to Salesforce (who I'd imagine are to the likes of SAP what Mint was to the likes of Intuit: commendable for the innovative business aspects, but not awe inspiring from technology point of view).

His article on the role of a CTO vs. VP of Engineering mentioned having an opinion on Ruby on Rails and familiarity with Hibernate as examples of description of a CTO. Compare this with a real technology company e.g., where the _CEO_ -- a "business guy" -- wrote lex as a his Thesis project.

I believe you've been in his world (enterprise software and consulting), so it's fairly clear to you that he neither needs -- nor is able to attract -- very strong technical people. That's fine: if you're building business software, hire people who are competent in writing software and who have understanding of business, but it does put perspective on the situation. He does not "get" what actual engineers (vs. business software developers) aim for a career: doing interesting work, continuously learning (thus becoming more valuable to present and future employers) rather than receiving a high salary and working for a successful company. That's why Calacanis didn't get why Evan left to join Yahoo (oh no, they're not cool according Techcrunch!), that people could be happy when they're doing interesting work even if their workplace is no longer considered hip and sexy.

Low compensation or feeling of an employer being a sinking ship will eventually get engineers to consider switching jobs (especially if they have a life goal that requires the additional money e.g., buying a house; this is especially true of those who started as "college hires" at companies with formulaic salary ranges and didn't think to negotiate), but it's never just about the money.

Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read my other comments in this discussion, you will surely see that I am in fact very pro-employee. I also am, however, very pro truth. Anyone who tells you he can have employees with low or zero productivity, for whatever reason, as select members of a small, highly leveraged startup - is either lying to you, or will fail unless he's extremely lucky not to have such employees. If your team consists of 3 senio…

Who said anything about low productivity? The issue at stake is whether you should hire "job hoppers". If I need to launch a complex product in 6 months or die, I don't care whether my senior developer had his entire family die from serial dysentery. Yeah, yeah - really respectful and caring.

Sure, if my senior developer had something horrible happen to him, I should allow him to work 0-2 hour weeks, keep him in the same position and payroll, and let my startup go down and hurt the lives of the other 9 employees who worked hard on it.

"Respect and care" means among other things, that you keep your business running so it can respect and care for the majority of employees. If you're going to take things to extreme, why then I need to "respect" every candidate by hiring, and "care" for any employee who just feels like taking a 20-month meditation trip to Tibet, since the woes of this modern world are depressing him.

The fact remains the same: a lean, highly leveraged startup can't allow developers to go off on vacations for 3-6+ months, no matter how badly they need it. Hell, if you're that kind of startup, those 3-6 months may very well be your entire product (or life!) cycle.

Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#97
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What "corner"? Having to launch a very successful product, very fast, or die - is what startups are all about. Certainly all the VC backed ones. And yes, anyone expecting any kind of job security at a startup, especially a VC backed one, is simply fooling himself.

Well an unrealistic timeline, if your idea is solid enough you shouldn't have to promise the world in a couple of months to get VC backing. There is the slowly building up a startup or leveraging big VC money in an all or nothing approach, one which you don't take if your goal is employee loyalty.

I won't really argue with that - although reality is that the vast majority of startups need to launch fast, or have the entire market move away from them, guaranteeing failure.

If you're developing an innovative product for the iPhone market, you can be sure that it won't be "innovative" in a year, especially if it was a good idea to begin with. Not to mention that in a year, such a fast market will move so far, that your original business model will be outdated in significant ways, because your price point, features, and target audience analysis are now all obsolete.

Even without that, though - you realize that VC-backed startups are a huge chunk of the startup sphere? In fact, the author of this article is a VC, and probably most of this article was written with VC-backed startups in mind.

Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, anecdotally, I've found that if your company is doing things that the general public (or at least, the peers of your employees) considers vaguely sketchy, it's best to counter it by getting a reputation as a great place to work. Zynga is a decent example: there is plenty of negative press about it, but none of the negative press is about working there, since by all accounts they treat their employees very well.

I had a think about this on the train on the way home, and here's the formula that I've come up with. Assuming that your employees aren't clueless (ie. know their market rate) and are free to leave (eg. not family members or H1-Bs), then you'll see significant employee churn if: asshattery $ It seems to hold for most of the cases that I can think of. Apple, for example, has a high asshattery factor (Steve Jobs) and m…

> "In the case of Mahalo, it seems like they have a large asshattery factor (Calcanis is an overbearing idiot who will post nasty things about you on Twitter)"

Why anyone would willingly work for someone like that is beyond me. You're setting yourself up for abuse, ensuring other employees are abused in the process.

In my view, once you post something ugly about any of your employees, you lose your ability to hire any non-desperate (let alone loyal) employees forever.

Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#99
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are absolutely loyal companies. It's just not the norm.

They're definitely not startups. If I need to launch a complex product in 6 months or die, I don't care whether my senior developer had his entire family die from serial dysentery. You're either working as hard as you can getting us to the milestone, or you're not a developer here. The truth is that being "loyal" will kill a startup.

What would be a reason to work for you?

Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#100

How about this: Employers who don't give proportional ownership of the company to workers are terrible employers and living off of your sweat.

I must admit that is a notion I don't understand. Why shouldn't it be possible to simply pay for a job and have it done by a professional? Like if I pay somebody to build me a house, am I supposed to give them ownership of the house afterwards?
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