Why a Brit chose to start a business in Berlin • Hacker News Board

Re: Why a Brit chose to start a business in Berlin

#91

Post by parennoob » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 2:04 PM UTC

GunboatDiplomat wrote: post #80

woodcut wrote: post #61

Welcome to Berlin. :) I came to Berlin roughly 5 years ago before the investment started pouring in and most startups were existenz grundungs, this is when you get 50k from the government and you underpay some interns to build your MVP. It was pretty shabby back then, and things have changed dramatically in the intervening years, but most people came for this vague idea of living cheaply and doing what they want - yo…

>Registration takes ~3-5 months to get an appointment, god forbid you're a foreigner and have to also register at the ausländerbehörde and wait from 3am for the 1 of 50 tickets available that day. Your bureaucracy makes American bureaucracy seem amazingly efficient in comparison. I did not know such a thing was possible outside defunct communist states.

> Your bureaucracy makes American bureaucracy seem amazingly efficient in comparison.

Yeah, and I thought waiting at the DMV in the USA was a bit of a pain as a foreigner. :)

"Wait from 3am for the 1 of 50 tickets available that day" makes Berlin sound worse than even the third world country I come from.

Re: Why a Brit chose to start a business in Berlin

#92

Post by regularjack » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 2:10 PM UTC

uola wrote: post #75

icebraining wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's Lisbon, as a middle point. 300-400€/m for a 60m² and you can get a 1Gbps/100mbps connection to your home.

From what I've heard Lisbon is about the same cost as Berlin. But the economy is worse, the tax system seems more complex and it's less accessible to foreigners. I guess the weather is nicer, but the location is worse. To legitimately compete with Berlin I think one really has to offer something special, otherwise Berlin wins by default in the low-medium cost category. Lisbon would still be on my shortlist for Europe…

Why do you say it's less accessible to foreigners?

Re: Why a Brit chose to start a business in Berlin

#93

Post by hawski » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 2:16 PM UTC

woodcut wrote: post #61

Welcome to Berlin. :) I came to Berlin roughly 5 years ago before the investment started pouring in and most startups were existenz grundungs, this is when you get 50k from the government and you underpay some interns to build your MVP. It was pretty shabby back then, and things have changed dramatically in the intervening years, but most people came for this vague idea of living cheaply and doing what they want - yo…

I can recommend going to Bürgeramt in Pankow.

My first registration was in Bürgeramt Wedding - appointment was scheduled one month before via Internet. There were lots of people waiting. Later on when I moved and had to register again, I tried to make an appointment, but it was impossible. My co-worker went to the Bürgeramt without appointment one hour before opening. Then he had to wait 3-4 hours. I went to Bürgeramt Pankow on Friday around 10:00 and there in 30 minutes it was done. It was not crowded. Later on when I asked around at work how is that, they told me that people seem to prefer to go to the nearest office (with hope that it will be quick enough) and wait several hours, than take 20-40 minutes of journey more and wait 0.5 an hour.

Re: Why a Brit chose to start a business in Berlin

#94

Post by denzil_correa » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 2:21 PM UTC

parennoob wrote: post #91

GunboatDiplomat wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Registration takes ~3-5 months to get an appointment, god forbid you're a foreigner and have to also register at the ausländerbehörde and wait from 3am for the 1 of 50 tickets available that day. Your bureaucracy makes American bureaucracy seem amazingly efficient in comparison. I did not know such a thing was possible outside defunct communist states.

> Your bureaucracy makes American bureaucracy seem amazingly efficient in comparison. Yeah, and I thought waiting at the DMV in the USA was a bit of a pain as a foreigner. :) "Wait from 3am for the 1 of 50 tickets available that day" makes Berlin sound worse than even the third world country I come from.

Check out the driving license process in Germany.

Re: Why a Brit chose to start a business in Berlin

#95

Post by wheels » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 2:29 PM UTC

woodcut wrote: post #61

Welcome to Berlin. :) I came to Berlin roughly 5 years ago before the investment started pouring in and most startups were existenz grundungs, this is when you get 50k from the government and you underpay some interns to build your MVP. It was pretty shabby back then, and things have changed dramatically in the intervening years, but most people came for this vague idea of living cheaply and doing what they want - yo…

"Existenz grundung" just means "founding a company". It doesn't imply anything about grants being taken. What you're probably referring to is a "Gründerzuschuss", which is a form of unemployment payment which gives you about 60% of your former salary with a fixed amount of time to get out of unemployment benefits via founding your own company. It's only available to those that were previously full-time employees.

Also, it's horseshit that €500/month was a good salary 5 years ago. More like €3500/month. Rent is also still far cheaper in Berlin than virtually any other western European major city.

Re: Why a Brit chose to start a business in Berlin

#96

Post by wheels » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 2:33 PM UTC

GunboatDiplomat wrote: post #80

woodcut wrote: post #61

Welcome to Berlin. :) I came to Berlin roughly 5 years ago before the investment started pouring in and most startups were existenz grundungs, this is when you get 50k from the government and you underpay some interns to build your MVP. It was pretty shabby back then, and things have changed dramatically in the intervening years, but most people came for this vague idea of living cheaply and doing what they want - yo…

>Registration takes ~3-5 months to get an appointment, god forbid you're a foreigner and have to also register at the ausländerbehörde and wait from 3am for the 1 of 50 tickets available that day. Your bureaucracy makes American bureaucracy seem amazingly efficient in comparison. I did not know such a thing was possible outside defunct communist states.

That's because he's exaggerating:

You can still make an appointment at the Ausländerbehörde (foreigner's office) a couple months in advance, and then you just have to show up on time. And as recently as a year ago, the last time I needed something same-day, showing up two hours before they opened (6 a.m.) was still enough to be at the front of the line. There were at that time not a fixed number of tickets for the day. Historically (meaning over the course of the decade I've lived in Berlin), if you needed an appointment same day, at any time, you'd usually wait less than two hours, no matter when you showed up. Much of this has worsened recently because of the refugee crisis, but it's a temporary overload of the system, not a systematic failure.

Re: Why a Brit chose to start a business in Berlin

#97

Post by hawski » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 2:35 PM UTC

hellofunk wrote: post #8

Wow, 20 square meters for €480? That doesn't register as affordable on my books (even with utilities included).

From what I could quickly find [1] there is nothing more expensive than London in Europe. And there is not a lot that is significantly cheaper than Berlin. At least in case of office space rent in major cities.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/431672/commercial-proper...

Re: Why a Brit chose to start a business in Berlin

#98

Post by thr234234 » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 2:46 PM UTC

scrollaway wrote: post #11

hellofunk wrote: post #8

Wow, 20 square meters for €480? That doesn't register as affordable on my books (even with utilities included).

Yeah. If you're shooting for affordability, Athens is a much better bet. 20sqm studios below €100/month in the heart of the capital. (Good luck getting decent internet, though.)

Internet is just fine here.

Re: Why a Brit chose to start a business in Berlin

#99

Post by rubber_duck » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 2:47 PM UTC

m_t wrote: post #90

rubber_duck wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on what you need, but from a startup perspective they are stiffing and offer very little in return, if you're not dependent on the local market you're just increasing costs.

Proper health care, good infrastructure, all those sorts of thing can make a difference if the startup wants to have local employees - or even if the founder wants to benefit from them.

If we're talking about supporting a family then having subsidized nurseries, good pediatric care, schools, social support structures etc. are definitely worth it.

If we're talking about single healthy people working for equity trying to cut cost of living in hope of big payout down the road then the difference between 40% and 10% income tax is huge and you're not really getting much out of your taxes.

Re: Why a Brit chose to start a business in Berlin

#100

Post by scrollaway » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 3:19 PM UTC

thr234234 wrote: post #98

scrollaway wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. If you're shooting for affordability, Athens is a much better bet. 20sqm studios below €100/month in the heart of the capital. (Good luck getting decent internet, though.)

Internet is just fine here.

As someone living in Athens, no it really isn't. No fiber, really poor VDSL penetration, awful ADSL quality everywhere else.