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Vector is now called Riot

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Re: Vector is now called Riot

#91

Post by jrv »

kuschku wrote: post #71
qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Riot is based on Matrix. If you scrolled down, it would tell you that it's got strong crypto, you can run your own servers, it's got really good cross-protocol bridges, and a ton of other stuff. And it's totally free, save the cost of running your own server if you choose to do so.

> it's got really good cross-protocol bridges With that you mean "a worse IRC bridge than Slack"? Every user and dev of IRC clients and servers I’ve talked to in the past weeks has only complained about Matrix’ bridge.

I've been using the Freenode-to-Matrix-bridged Freenode IRC rooms for around a month now and am pretty happy, besides the occasional glitch due to Matrix and its bridges still being in beta.

Re: Vector is now called Riot

#92

Post by kuschku »

reitanqild wrote: post #90
kuschku wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you might want to take a look at matrix (the protocol), and suggest improvements; we all stand to benefit from your (and the community's) suggestions. My suggestion: stop the project, burn the code. Seriously, by splitting up the dev effort between yet one more project, the open source community ends up with even more competing standards. You don’t even believe yourself you’ll be able to actually replace the ecosys…

> My suggestion: stop the project, burn the code. > Seriously, by splitting up the dev effort between yet one more project, the open source community ends up with even more competing standards. Oh come on: there is no lack of developer time , so many developers are rotting away in front of TVs. There is however a lack of developer motivation to do open source projects. If anyone wants to work on this instead of wasti…

It’s not just about developer time, it’s also about the users.

The amount of users willing to use an open source chat system is limited.

If we want to profit from the same network effects that proprietary chat systems profit from, we need to get everyone into one system, which also scales to extreme scales, and, yes, allows content censoring on some level – but also allows anyone to open their own federated server with different censoring policies.

Adding more standards doesn’t help, unless they federate both ways.

(Although Matrix is the least problematic example there, Signal is far worse in those regards)

Re: Vector is now called Riot

#93

Post by kuschku »

Arathorn wrote: post #82
kuschku wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's got really good cross-protocol bridges With that you mean "a worse IRC bridge than Slack"? Every user and dev of IRC clients and servers I’ve talked to in the past weeks has only complained about Matrix’ bridge.

interesting - what is the precise issue? The main difference is that Matrix acts effectively as a bouncer, bouncing all the different clients into IRC, rather than a bridge - unlike Slack's bridge which is just a single bot. We're aware that we haven't enabled membership list syncing into Matrix yet from IRC (due to performance issues on synapse), but otherwise it should be pretty good. More fact, less FUD please? :)

> interesting - what is the precise issue?

The most complaints are about not working private messages to Matrix users (because the bridge doesn’t join people), about the bridge de-syncing from IRC – and you suddenly having every matrix user thrice in the channel, and similar issues.

General stability, ability to chat with Matrix users as if they were there natively, etc.

Re: Vector is now called Riot

#95

Post by reitanqild »

kuschku wrote: post #92
reitanqild wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My suggestion: stop the project, burn the code. > Seriously, by splitting up the dev effort between yet one more project, the open source community ends up with even more competing standards. Oh come on: there is no lack of developer time , so many developers are rotting away in front of TVs. There is however a lack of developer motivation to do open source projects. If anyone wants to work on this instead of wasti…

It’s not just about developer time, it’s also about the users. The amount of users willing to use an open source chat system is limited. If we want to profit from the same network effects that proprietary chat systems profit from, we need to get everyone into one system, which also scales to extreme scales, and, yes, allows content censoring on some level – but also allows anyone to open their own federated server wi…

> Adding more standards doesn’t help, unless they federate both ways.

> (Although Matrix is the least problematic example there, Signal is far worse in those regards)

Not everyone in open source is out here to dethrone proprietary systems (although many of us have "enemies", my personal one ATM is Oracle, although with a smile, -I wouldn't sabotage them even if I could get away with it but I love to tell people about alternatives)

Some are just experimenting, some are building reputation, some are just out here to make the world a better place for everyone etc.

Telling people who produce nice useful stuff to "stop the project, burn the code" is, IMO, rude and harmful.

Edit: Let me add, - thanks a whole lot for working on opensource and on irc specifically. Many of us here love IRC and the reason why I downvoted one of your earlier comments is because we don't think anyone should be allowed to tell people what open source projects they should or should not start or contribute to.

Re: Vector is now called Riot

#96

Post by kuschku »

reitanqild wrote: post #95
kuschku wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not just about developer time, it’s also about the users. The amount of users willing to use an open source chat system is limited. If we want to profit from the same network effects that proprietary chat systems profit from, we need to get everyone into one system, which also scales to extreme scales, and, yes, allows content censoring on some level – but also allows anyone to open their own federated server wi…

> Adding more standards doesn’t help, unless they federate both ways. > (Although Matrix is the least problematic example there, Signal is far worse in those regards) Not everyone in open source is out here to dethrone proprietary systems (although many of us have "enemies", my personal one ATM is Oracle, although with a smile, -I wouldn't sabotage them even if I could get away with it but I love to tell people about…

The user I replied to asked me what I’d suggest to fix with Matrix, or change with it.

So I replied honestly.

I knew most wouldn’t like the answer, but it’s still what I’d do.

I also didn’t suggest to actually do it – just that that would be what I’d do, if it was my responsibility.

> some are just out here to make the world a better place for everyone etc.

and

> Not everyone in open source is out here to dethrone proprietary systems

Are the same, though.

It’s just that if we want to compete with products that have multiple-billion-dollar marketing budgets, have thousands of paid engineers working on perfectly planned timelines, etc, we really need to coordinate.

The "let’s go and everyone build their own" is good for hobby projects, but as soon as it comes to building something for users to actually use, you need quality control, coordinated branding and marketing, you need focus of development, you need people doing QA and support.

Re: Vector is now called Riot

#97

Post by reitanqild »

kuschku wrote: post #96
reitanqild wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Adding more standards doesn’t help, unless they federate both ways. > (Although Matrix is the least problematic example there, Signal is far worse in those regards) Not everyone in open source is out here to dethrone proprietary systems (although many of us have "enemies", my personal one ATM is Oracle, although with a smile, -I wouldn't sabotage them even if I could get away with it but I love to tell people about…

The user I replied to asked me what I’d suggest to fix with Matrix, or change with it. So I replied honestly. I knew most wouldn’t like the answer, but it’s still what I’d do. I also didn’t suggest to actually do it – just that that would be what I’d do, if it was my responsibility. > some are just out here to make the world a better place for everyone etc. and > Not everyone in open source is out here to dethrone pr…

> The user I replied to asked me what I’d suggest to fix with Matrix, or change with it.

> So I replied honestly.

OK, I see I misunderstood your intentions.

I won't take all the blame for the misunderstanding though.

That said you managed to get me interested so if you don't mind:

Where should I start reading to read up on modern IRC?

And again: thanks a bunch for helping in maintaining an open-source project! Very much appreciated!

Re: Vector is now called Riot

#99

Post by kuschku »

reitanqild wrote: post #97
kuschku wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The user I replied to asked me what I’d suggest to fix with Matrix, or change with it. So I replied honestly. I knew most wouldn’t like the answer, but it’s still what I’d do. I also didn’t suggest to actually do it – just that that would be what I’d do, if it was my responsibility. > some are just out here to make the world a better place for everyone etc. and > Not everyone in open source is out here to dethrone pr…

> The user I replied to asked me what I’d suggest to fix with Matrix, or change with it. > So I replied honestly. OK, I see I misunderstood your intentions. I won't take all the blame for the misunderstanding though. That said you managed to get me interested so if you don't mind: Where should I start reading to read up on modern IRC? And again: thanks a bunch for helping in maintaining an open-source project! Very m…

Regarding modern IRC, there’s http://ircv3.net/, the corresponding repo of specifications, https://github.com/ircv3/, and the IRC channel #ircv3 on freenode.

Also take a look at IRCCloud or Quassel or Weechat+GlowingBear to see what can be possible with IRC already today, if you use a modern bouncer. (Part of the work of IRCv3 is integrating that functionality again).

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