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Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

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Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#91

Post by Practicality »

jacalata wrote: post #81
Practicality wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are these generic Americans that think that Snowden should be condemned? Everyone American I know is very grateful for what he did. And I know quite a few. I've only ever heard official policy statements condemning him. I am not even really sure those stating such policy agree with what they are saying (at a personal level).

This reminds me of my friend who was convinced John Kerry would win the election because "I don't know anybody who will vote for Bush!" In other words, I suspect you have a strong selection bias informing your view of Americans.

True. But Kerry did get 48% of the vote. That's a LOT of people. It's not like the 50% who voted for Bush are the only Americans that exist.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#92

Post by sarnowski »

freehunter wrote: post #86
dllthomas wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://harvardlawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/vol126_t... My understanding has it that in practice "the people" means roughly "all citizens and residents of the US", not all people anywhere. You can disagree with the courts over what the words mean, but do so deliberately.

That is an excellent article! I actually learned quite a bit from that, thank you. The main take-away that I had is that the courts generally uphold "the people" to mean "citizens", but there are some strong divisions on that and the case is far from settled. At the very least I agree with Harvard's opinion that this judgement cannot hold true to all instances of the the phrase "the people" without massively undoing…

Interestingly, the german preliminary constituion (we don't have a real one) that was written by the WWII allies also is about people but unambigously means all people on earth.

'Article 1 of the Basic Law (in German legal shorthand GG, for Grundgesetz), which establishes this principle that "human dignity is inviolable" and that human rights are directly applicable law, ...'

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law_for_the_Federal_Re...

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#93

Post by jacalata »

Practicality wrote: post #91
jacalata wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of my friend who was convinced John Kerry would win the election because "I don't know anybody who will vote for Bush!" In other words, I suspect you have a strong selection bias informing your view of Americans.

True. But Kerry did get 48% of the vote. That's a LOT of people. It's not like the 50% who voted for Bush are the only Americans that exist.

Of course not. I understood your comment to be questioning whether there exist any individual Americans who condemn Snowden and proposing as evidence for their non-existence "Everyone American I know". If you were just saying that you don't think the majority of Americans condemn Snowden then I have no disagreement.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#95

Post by Jtsummers »

Practicality wrote: post #53
saynsedit wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, Americans sleep when they hear 90% of drone attack deaths are civilians: https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/the-assassination-comp... But they are wide awake and outraged when Snowden's ostensible act of espionage has caused an enormous amount of public good and technological innovation. It's not really the American's fault. We hear few of their real voices. It's the media that speaks the loudest.

Who are these generic Americans that think that Snowden should be condemned? Everyone American I know is very grateful for what he did. And I know quite a few. I've only ever heard official policy statements condemning him. I am not even really sure those stating such policy agree with what they are saying (at a personal level).

I live near a military base, views against him are quite common here. The defense culture, in general, and those who view "security" [0] as the primary role of our government also condemn him.

[0] This is a non-partisan view. I hear it from Democrats, Republicans, and some Libertarians (who hold more to the fiscal sense of modern libertarianism than the civil liberties sense, which is a shame). There's a large group of people in the US who seem to believe that security for-its-own-sake cannot be evil, in an ends-justify-the-means version of morality.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#96

Post by rayiner »

peterkelly wrote: post #39
mozumder wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What illegal activities did the NSA perform here? In case you didn't notice, the Snowden leaks revealed filters that removed US citizens' communications, showing that they were complying with US laws that prevent the US military (of which the NSA is part of) from spying on US citizens. Why would the NSA have these compliance filters as part of a classified program if they were allegedly performing illegal activities?

> What illegal activities did the NSA perform here? See the first link in my comment. > In case you didn't notice, the Snowden leaks revealed filters that removed US citizens' communications, showing that they were complying with US laws that prevent the US military (of which the NSA is part of) from spying on US citizens. So what? As one of the 7.1 billion people who are not US citizens, I object to the notion that…

Reprehensible isn't the same as illegal. The 4th amendment does not apply to foreign citizens on foreign soil. NSA spying on Australians may be undesirable for various reasons, but it is legal.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#97

Post by rayiner »

freehunter wrote: post #65
canttestthis wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As surprising as this may sound, those of us born in other countries have the same rights too, and deserve the same protections. Citizens of other countries in fact don't have the same rights and protections against the NSA as citizens. It's why the NSA exists.

If the Constitution says something, it applies to everyone everywhere. The Constitution of the United States does not apply to people it applies to the government. It says nothing about "US citizens" or "foreign nationals". It restricts what the government can do. So if the fourth amendment right to protection against unreasonable searches applies here (which there seems to be some debate about), it would apply to ev…

The Constitution is American law, and American law does not apply extraterritorially except in narrow cases. That's a bedrock principle of Constitutional law. The only thing that binds the US government abroad is the law of the jungle.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#98

Post by rayiner »

peterkelly wrote: post #70
lucozade wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> those of us born in other countries have the same rights too Not in US law we don't. To my knowledge there is no internationally agreed and enforceable privacy law. Now, as a UK citizen, I'm not exactly jumping with joy for either what the NSA or GCHQ have done but, from the point of view of US courts, spying on me is not something that bothers them hugely.

You're correct in the legal sense, but there is also the moral/philosophical aspect to it. Here's what the US Declaration of Independence had to say on the matter: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." This is the moral/philosophical aspect. (I c…

The Declaration of Independence has no legal force.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#99

Post by mzw_mzw »

peterkelly wrote: post #39
mozumder wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What illegal activities did the NSA perform here? In case you didn't notice, the Snowden leaks revealed filters that removed US citizens' communications, showing that they were complying with US laws that prevent the US military (of which the NSA is part of) from spying on US citizens. Why would the NSA have these compliance filters as part of a classified program if they were allegedly performing illegal activities?

> What illegal activities did the NSA perform here? See the first link in my comment. > In case you didn't notice, the Snowden leaks revealed filters that removed US citizens' communications, showing that they were complying with US laws that prevent the US military (of which the NSA is part of) from spying on US citizens. So what? As one of the 7.1 billion people who are not US citizens, I object to the notion that…

>So what? As one of the 7.1 billion people who are not US citizens, I object to the notion that only the rights of Americans warrant protection.

If you're that keen to be covered by the United States Constitution, you can always petition for statehood; there's a procedure right there in Article IV, Section 3, Clause 1. Go to it, and good luck!

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#100

Post by mzw_mzw »

freehunter wrote: post #71
Sneakos wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could waste time insulting them, or you could provide a case as to why you are right. What purpose does it serve to call them lazy?

There are some things it's not worth arguing because the facts have already been well presented and at this point anyone arguing to the contrary has deliberately chosen to ignore those facts. Obama is a Muslim born in Kenya. Climate change is not real. Jet fuel can't melt steel beams. JFK was killed by a magic bullet. The Holocaust never happened. Snowden is a terrorist and a treasonous traitor. Does anyone really st…

>I would actually argue that it's not wasting time to insult them, it's wasting time arguing with them.

That's exactly the attitude that brought us Donald Trump. If you mock and delegitimize people for long enough, they'll stop taking the system seriously and just give you the finger in any way they can.

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