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How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

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Re: How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

#91
post #64

As I a software developer with no degree (working since 2009 in 3 countries), I can share my experience of attempts to learn advanced math. In 2010, I was very interested in foundations of mathematics, an extremely abstract math branches: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_mathematics In particular I spent huge amount of time on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Bourbaki (Set theory) https://en.wikiped…

I don't agree with your suggestion about olympiad math since it often has little relationship to applying advanced mathematics, but there definitely is merit to the idea that you might need to put theory into practice in order to gain insight about these things. I recommend (surprise surprise) programming. Implement fast fourier transform in C and then Common Lisp. Write a finite difference PDE solver. Try solving ac…

Several Project Euler problems require some mathematical nuggets and provide nice motivation to dive deeper (and provide an application right there, too).

Re: How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

#92

This is stupid. The hard part about a Math degree is the number of hours you have to put in. If you cannot go to university full time, go part time. If you cannot go part time, you don't have enough time to actually learn any of these topics on your own. I've done these classes. It's typically 150 hours per class and it's not something you do after coming exhausted home from work either. After those 150 hours you'll…

>It's typically 150 hours per class and it's not something you do after coming exhausted home from work either.

Assuming you can only invest, lets say, 5 hours on the weekend, it will be 30 weeks per class, summing up to ~1.5 classes per year year. I'd say that if someone can keep that up for 10 years, theirs understanding of math will be far above the average population...

Re: How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

#93
What do people think of this idea. Let's say you want to casually improve your maths knowledge in your spare time. Let's say you find it frustrating how you generally can't just google concepts as you come across them, because the material is usually presented so obtusely and you need to be able to ask questions and have things explained in different ways. Let's say you live in a university town. Let's say you pay a graduate student to just spend a couple hours per week answering your questions, on whatever concepts you're having difficulty with.

Do you think this would work well? Obviously it costs money but I'm guessing the rate wouldn't need to be too high to make it worth their time. They wouldn't need to do any preparation, just have a good grounding in the language of maths.

Re: How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

#94
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem of contemporary mathematics is that it is unbelievably obfuscated to most people, unnecessarily so. So even if you a have super-simple thing, mathematicians invented ways how to completely obfuscate meaning (often unfortunately in order to achieve prestige and being considered elite as a form of intellectual pride). Imagine Dirichlet's box principle, a thing that a 5-year old should understand; now l…

> Imagine Dirichlet's box principle, a thing that a 5-year old should understand; now look at how is it taught in discrete mathematics. The theorem is "there's no injective function whose codomain is smaller than its domain". It's not stated this way because mathematicians are snobs or to impress students! abstraction is the very nature of mathematics. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstraction_(mathematics) "Abs…

And this is the problem - you don't teach students how Euler or Aristotle came up with the idea that they would understand, instead you force an abstraction on them right from the start without them grasping any connection to any part of reality they are immersed in. Some of us are capable of connecting the dots right away, some aren't, though would be if we saw how people came up with those ideas. Also, I was absolutely furious when I attended mathematical olympiad as a 10-year old and the problem formulation required familiarity with University math level language. You mathematicians are shooting yourself into feet.

Re: How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

#95
post #70
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem of contemporary mathematics is that it is unbelievably obfuscated to most people, unnecessarily so. So even if you a have super-simple thing, mathematicians invented ways how to completely obfuscate meaning (often unfortunately in order to achieve prestige and being considered elite as a form of intellectual pride). Imagine Dirichlet's box principle, a thing that a 5-year old should understand; now l…

It's like this. If you're on a C++ team where the whole team heavily uses C++'s features as well as Boost, then you should write your code accordingly. This'll make your code more concise, and clearer to the other members of the team. At the same time, it'll make it much more obfuscated to, say, a C programmer.

It's more like everybody is forced to use C++ for everything. Would you rather write a distributed transactional system in C++/CORBA or in Java? How much time are you going to lose by choosing C++ and in debugging it comparing to Java? Or even substitute Assembly language for C++. (Disclaimer: I love C++, this is just an example)

Re: How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

#96
post #84
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem of contemporary mathematics is that it is unbelievably obfuscated to most people, unnecessarily so. So even if you a have super-simple thing, mathematicians invented ways how to completely obfuscate meaning (often unfortunately in order to achieve prestige and being considered elite as a form of intellectual pride). Imagine Dirichlet's box principle, a thing that a 5-year old should understand; now l…

Just because something seems obvious does not mean that it is. Famously, for example, Bertrand Russell and Alfred Whitehead prove in Volume II of their Principia Mathematica, using theorem 54.43 from page 379, Volume I, that 1+1=2 (adding that "the above proposition is occasionally useful.") Now, that is clearly obvious to everyone, and yet what Russell and Whitehead achieved in the intervening 400+ pages was more th…

Also, consider this - nowadays fewer and fewer academicians achieve groundbreaking results in their young age. It's more common for people to study 30+ years before they really contribute something important to science. Often it is because one has to study huge amount of previous results to come up with something new and validated. This time-to-result is likely going to increase in the future. Either we manage to continuously prolong lifespan while keeping brain elastic or we would have to make serious changes to the underlying math to keep math still rigorous, correct but more accessible to the way human brain operates, otherwise there won't be anyone living long enough to come with new results.

Re: How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

#97
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope this doesn't come across as brash. I don't mean it to, but I must disagree with your assertions (In my case at least). Learning advanced mathematics without university is completely possible. Because it is at your own learning pace. Not one of a University. I graduated several years ago with a BS in Computer Science, with a Focus on Networking. And during that time, I held 3 part time jobs while also be…

As a mathematician, and seeing what's on the article (and with no intention to downplay your achievements, which are impressive), that's not what I think of when I hear "advanced mathematics". Vectorial calculus and differential equations (ordinary, not partial) are basic courses in math degrees. For the things that the article explains, such as topology, group/ring theory, measure theory, functional analysis, etc (w…

(responding not to what is in the article, but only to your comment on how difficult it is to study what is more nearly "advanced mathematics")

I got 800 on the 1980s-era math SATs, came in third in the Portland OR area in a math contest in high school, and did OK at Caltech (not in a math major), but I'm no Terry Tao, and I very much doubt I'd've been anything very special in a good math undergrad program. Some years after graduation, I found it challenging but doable to get my mind around a fair fraction of an abstract-algebra-for-math-sophomores textbook, including a reasonable amount of group theory (enough to formalize a significant amount of the proof of Solow theorem as an exercise in HOL Light, and also various parts of the basics of how to get to the famous result on impossibility of a closed-form solution for roots of a quintic).

From what I've seen of real analysis and measure theory (a real analysis course in grad school motivated by practical path integral Monte Carlo calculations, plus various skimming of texts over the years), it'd be similarly manageable to self-learn it.

One problem is that some math topics tend to be poorly treated for self-learning, not because they are insanely difficult but because the author seems never to have stepped back and carefully figured out how to express what is going on in a precise self-contained way, just relying (I guess) on a lot of informal backup from a teaching assistant explaining things behind the scenes. On a small scale, some important bit of notation or terminology can be left undefined, which is usually not too bad with modern search engines but was a potential PITA before that. On a larger scale, I found the treatment of basic category theory in several introductory abstract algebra texts seemed prone to this kind of sloppiness, not taking adequate care to ground definitions and concepts in terms of definitions and concepts that a self-studying student could be expected to know, and that's harder to solve with a search engine, tending to lead into a tangle of much more category theory and abstraction than one needs to know for the purpose at hand. My impression is that mathematicians are worse at this than they need to be, in particular worse than physicists: various things in quantum mechanics seem as nontrivial and slippery as category theory to me, but the physicists seem to be better at introducing it and grounding it. (Admittedly, though, physicists can ground it in a series of motivating concrete experiments, which is an aid to keeping their arguments straight which the mathematicians have to do without.)

I have been much more motivated to study CS-related and machine-learning-related stuff than pure math, and I have been about as motivated to self-study other things (like electronics and history) as pure math, so I have probably put only a handful of man-months into math over the years. If I had put several man-years into it, it seems possible that I could have made progress at a useful fraction of the speed of progress I'd expect from taking college math courses in the usual way.

I think it would be particularly manageable to get up to speed on particular applications by self-study: not an overview of group theory in the abstract, but learning the part of group theory needed to understand the famous proof about roots of the quintic, or something hairier like (some manageable-size fraction of) the proof of the classification of finite simple groups. Still not easy, likely a level harder than teaching oneself programming, but not an incredible intellectual tour de force.

"Myself, only after 5 years of mathematics I'm somehow comfortable to study subjects by myself, and it's still hard."

Serious math seems to be reasonably difficult, self-study or not. Even people taking college courses in the ordinary way are seldom able to coast, right?

Re: How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

#98
post #47

> How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University I wonder if it's even possible. Learning maths requires much work, time and dedication. Doing so alone must be very difficult. There are several things universities provide that are hard to replicate alone: a degree, which gives you access to a job, motivation, learning environment, and "peace of mind". What I mean by peace of mind is that, when you're…

I really hope this doesn't come across as brash. I don't mean it to, but I must disagree with your assertions (In my case at least). Learning advanced mathematics without university is completely possible. Because it is at your own learning pace. Not one of a University. I graduated several years ago with a BS in Computer Science, with a Focus on Networking. And during that time, I held 3 part time jobs while also be…

* the most advanced math I had was Algebra 2*

How could you get a BS in CS without taking calculus courses? Which school did you go to?

Re: How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

#100
post #57

On question is: why? The examples in differential geometry can be difficult and time-consuming , unlike simple calculus, and are best done with computer, not by hand. A single tensor, as found in general relativity, may have dozens of components...writing them out would be taxing. My question is, what do want to do with this knowledge. There is value in learning complicated, abstract math to signal intellect and thus…

It seems as of late ,especially since 2013, there is huge demand for learning complicated mathematics, coding, and trading algorithms. It's like the AP-math class of high school, but as of 2013 expanded to include almost everyone, not just a dozen students lol. This recent obsession with math and finance is described in more detail..... Obsession with Math? Where do you live where people have math obsessions? Where I…

> this world you mention where STEM students gain so much prestige and math papers go.... viral? Where is this world? What planet are you posting from? Which galaxy is it located in? Is this post of yours real-life or am I dreaming?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_chamber_(media)

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