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If English were written like Chinese (1999)

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Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...horrid color schemes, no support for mobile devices...yeah, what a breath of fresh air.

Yeah, I can't believe they didn't use responsive CSS in 1999. Such ignorance.

That's because in 1999, HTML was considered responsive by default. It was up to the browser how to render it given its output medium.

AFAIK it was the iPhone's Safari that sucked first at rendering HTML without mobile-customized CSS.

Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#92
post #19

This article is actually a lot better at explaining the characters system used in both china and Japan, than the articles that have hit the front page today and in the last week or so.

It's a fucked up writing system that is pretty beautiful as well. Unfortunately it has limited the number of syllables (combinations of sounds) in the language. Why? Because they have to make due with just 2000 phonetic sounds (335 in modern Japanese) while English letters can combine in many more ways and form a much more diverse array of sounds. As a result Japanese people (probably Chinese too) have a hard time pr…

>"in these countries children in the 5th grade can't properly read a newspaper because they need to already know 2000 characters and many more combinations of characters by rote."

This is completely false. I spent seven years working in Taiwanese schools, and saw a few precocious seven year olds reading newspapers and virtually any 5th grader able to. It's very similar to the situation in English speaking countries, though I would say that first graders growing up with characters are probably a bit behind their English-speaking counterparts and a bit ahead by the time they're in fifth grade. This only applies to developed places like Japan, Taiwan and Hong Kong. Obviously a poor child from rural China will have a different set of challenges and be behind.

Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is your brain on nationalism"

You can imagine being British and learning the American language. Of course people feel cheated if their culture is not credited where it should be.

When someone in Japan, talking about the Japanese language, refers to "Japanese characters", they clearly mean "characters used when writing Japanese". They are not suggesting anything about where the characters originated.

Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#94
post #55

People might be interested to know that Egyptian Hieroglyphics, despite looking even more like pictograms are actually an alphabet. Another cool fact, in hieroglyphics there is more than one way to write a word, because, unlike most alphabetic systems, some characters are multi syllabic and can represent two or more syllables.

Wasn't it rather a syllabary?

I've never heard it described that way.

And like most semitic languages, hieroglyphics mostly record the consonantal skeleton of a word.

There are additional symbols (determinatives) to disambiguate homonyms.

Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#95
post #34

Is this meant to be serious (surely not) or rather like Mark Twain's take on spelling reform?

As regards Twain: the take you are thinking of was probably not written by him, but wrongly attributed to him after his death. He did, however, write an article[0] about spelling reform later in life, in which he sincerely advocated the use of a simplified "longhand, written with the shorthand alphabet unreduced." That is, he proposed the use of Isaac Pitman's phonographic alphabet—the basis of what was then the most…

I didn't realize it wasn't actually his.

Thanks for the link, unfortunately Google doesn't seem to want to show me the content. I wonder if they are implementing some kind of region coding (I'm in Norway).

I always wonder whether people advocating phonetic spelling have ever encountered someone who speaks a different dialect. In Twain's case it is pretty certain that he did as the Huckleberry Finn books include dialect dialogue. How did he think such people would use a phonetic script or worse a phonological one? Did he expect everyone to suddenly start speaking the American analogue of what in the UK we call Received Pronunciation (RP)? If not then surely another person's script would be even harder to read than it is already.

Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#96
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As regards Twain: the take you are thinking of was probably not written by him, but wrongly attributed to him after his death. He did, however, write an article[0] about spelling reform later in life, in which he sincerely advocated the use of a simplified "longhand, written with the shorthand alphabet unreduced." That is, he proposed the use of Isaac Pitman's phonographic alphabet—the basis of what was then the most…

I didn't realize it wasn't actually his. Thanks for the link, unfortunately Google doesn't seem to want to show me the content. I wonder if they are implementing some kind of region coding (I'm in Norway). I always wonder whether people advocating phonetic spelling have ever encountered someone who speaks a different dialect. In Twain's case it is pretty certain that he did as the Huckleberry Finn books include diale…

> I always wonder whether people advocating phonetic spelling have ever encountered someone who speaks a different dialect.

For just this reason, English spelling reform was probably doomed from the start. Any new standard seems just as arbitrary as the old one to a speaker of a non-standard dialect. The chosen set of vowels—whatever it might be—would ring particularly untrue to the ears of millions of English speakers, who might use any 12 to 20 vowels of a pool of a few dozen in their own speech.

My own example: I grew up in a part of the U.S. that makes no distinction whatsoever between the vowels in 'thought,' 'lot,' and 'father'—yet these are three separate sounds in Received Pronunciation, and might be divided into two elsewhere. Not only can I not make three different sounds for these vowels—I do not know how they would differ!—I cannot tell the difference between them when listening to someone who can. (Perhaps the 'a' of 'father' I could note in contrast to the other two with some conscious effort.) If I were to use a phonological spelling system that split this vowel group into three, I would have to memorize by rote—again!—the spelling of many words. What was supposed to be an easy system that did away with rote memorization, turns out to be more of the same. Perhaps this second learning curve is not so steep—no 'ough'-es—but I've already gotten past the first one! Why bother again?

If, on the other hand, a phonemic alphabet were provided—something like a more elegant IPA—making our spelling as idiosyncratic as our speech, we would just have a new set of problems. First, second language learners would find no refuge from the dizzying amount of dialects and accents while they were still learning fundamentals. This would be a sore spot for any language, but especially for a common lingua franca like English is today. And then, the language of the law, the academy, and business might recede still further from students unprivileged in class, birthplace, and schooling, if they first learned to write in their own dialect, not that of the ruling classes.

There is an advantage to an orthography having some remove from the spoken language, as it provides a common ground for speakers of different dialects to communicate. Chinese ideograms do particularly well here—to draw us back toward the article—as entire articles might be written which could be understood equally well by two speakers of mutually unintelligible dialects, dialects so far removed from one another that they could be called separate languages.

I don't think I'm letting you in on anything new here, but as it is a topic I've put some thought into, I took the opportunity to turn into a windbag.

Sorry about the Twain link. Here's Gutenberg[0], if you're interested in the text all the same.

[0] http://www.gutenberg.org/files/70/70-h/70-h.htm#link2H_4_001...

Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#97
post #32
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An icon? no. There are however, online hanzi dictionaries where the user draws a character, here's one: http://ce.linedict.com/dict.html#/cnen/home See the paintbrush next to the magnifying glass in the search field.

Also not for icons but for math symbols: http://detexify.kirelabs.org/classify.html Really useful when you want to use "that squiggly thingy" but don't know the TeX command.

I usually jump straight to http://shapecatcher.com/ for arbitrary Unicode.

Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#98
post #14

[work] + [fight] + [sun] is poor Huffmanization of the common English suffix -tion . That's what, 14 strokes when English just takes 7? Well, maybe that was the point, though -- that the priorities of the language may change over time, and eventually you're dealing with 2000 year old Cockney rhyming slang baked into your written language. But that's just the opinion of one guy sitting on his Vannevar.

>sitting on his Vannevar.

Took me a minute and some Googling. Did you just make that up? It's in perfect spirit.

Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#99
post #98
post #14

[work] + [fight] + [sun] is poor Huffmanization of the common English suffix -tion . That's what, 14 strokes when English just takes 7? Well, maybe that was the point, though -- that the priorities of the language may change over time, and eventually you're dealing with 2000 year old Cockney rhyming slang baked into your written language. But that's just the opinion of one guy sitting on his Vannevar.

>sitting on his Vannevar. Took me a minute and some Googling. Did you just make that up? It's in perfect spirit.

Yeah, that's my original rhyming slang. Thought of it about a year ago. But as is usual for jokes, sometimes you have to wait for years to find the perfect time and audience to use it.

Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#100
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> on the other hand, in these countries children in the 5th grade can't properly read a newspaper because they need to already know 2000 characters A child exiting reception grade in China, i.e. entering Grade 1, is expected to know 1000-1500 characters. They certainly don't know all combinations of characters these words form, but the learning starts young.

It's more useful if you say the child's age, since I'm not sure which country "grade 1" refers to. If it's the USA, I'm not sure how old that is either.

From 6-8 years old. Parents in China can 'speed up' or 'slow down' their child's education by putting them in school early or late.
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