Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years • Hacker News Board

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#91

Post by djsumdog » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 2:03 AM UTC

MichaelApproved wrote: post #74

christoph wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case it helps, there is actually a very low tech solution to booting copied games on Saturn hardware that works with the vast majority of games released (especially expensive/rare/hard to find games like the Treasure releases). Tape/wedge the drive lid sensor down, power up with a real game in (you don't need to close the lid as the sensor believes the lid is always shut) and allow it do the initial copy protectio…

Why not just cut the wobble edge of a real CD off and attach it to a burned CD? Maybe you can shave the back of the shimmed wobble edge down, so that it won't stick out as much on the burned CD. This shimmed wobble can be your key for all the burned CDs you have. Maybe double sided tape can keep the wobble shim attached to your burned CD while still allowing it to be removable for other CDs. I've never had a Saturn,…

I don't think you can't cut a CD like that. The moment you try to cut it with anything, it will probably crack (both for real silicon and CD-Rs).

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#92

Post by djsumdog » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 2:05 AM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #35

donatj wrote: post #5

I can't wait for him to start selling these! I would buy one in a hot minute. My Saturn is collecting dust and there are so many games I just can't get my hands on for my Saturn, and emulation in my experience hardly works. It's way too weird a machine.

As an Aussie he's going to be subject to the TPPs DMCA-lite restrictions on circumvention devices once it's ratified.

Australia has some of the best reverse engineering laws currently. Those four kids reverse the Sydney train system legally (they did responsibly disclose n such).

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#93

Post by djsumdog » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 2:10 AM UTC

83457 wrote: post #21

If only the Dreamcast protection had been that good. Was really disappointed when it died :(

Sega wasn't losing money on the Dreamcast, but they weren't making money either. Sega's exit didn't have to do with sales; they chose to exit the console market because there was more money if they focused on games and less on hardware.

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#94

Post by uxp100 » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 2:10 AM UTC

christoph wrote: post #46

uxp100 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that is something. They thought better hardware protection was unnecessary because they believed in the strength of their software solution (which was quickly cracked)? The games could be larger, so that CDs could not fit them without changes. IIRC early Soul Calibur burns had their music down-sampled to fit 650 MB. And was it Skies of Arcadia that really did have too much content to fit on a CD, without seriou…

Dreamcast games varied in size massively. Crazy Taxi was only around 100mb. So small in fact that when initially burnt to a CD the drive couldn't load files fast enough (as files were closer to the inner ring of the disc). Tools were then released to 'pad' the game files out to be closer to the outer edge with a dummy file. Files close to the outer edge can be read faster as the drive laser can cover more distance pe…

Oh yes, I remember padding the image, and Echelon, of course. I still have the tools somewhere in my backups.

You mention the read speed issues, meaning the dreamcast drive was CAV. Were all data drives of the time CAV? Are audio CD players CAV? Not some 40 second skip protection discman, but like a hifi unit from the 80s (since my naive 80s implementation would not like the data rate changing across the disc)? Does CAV vs CLV have any meaning here, or is pretty much laserdisc only terms?

All things I vaguely feel like I should know (like if all optical media has pits that are the same length across the disc. I think not, again laserdisc.) I love my dreamcast. Left one in an apartment 6 years ago when I moved out. It could be still there. Still have one.

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#95

Post by djsumdog » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 2:14 AM UTC

zdw wrote: post #51

Bromskloss wrote: post #17

Does Sega gain anything from not just releasing all the information?

They probably have contractual restrictions - agreements to help fight against unauthorized copying, or to protect the copyrights of people who create games on the system. And in general, most console systems are a serious bundle of hacks, mostly tolerated by programmers by the sole fact that you can rely on every system to be identical.

Not to mention a lot of the information me be lost or on archives servers/backups/tapes engineers have long forgotten about.

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#96

Post by voltagex_ » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 2:15 AM UTC

tsao wrote: post #24

One of the YT comments is about how he is not releasing the "ROM dump". Any idea of why he isn't doing this?

From jhl in the forum thread:

>I, myself, am not going to release these ROMs. This isn't the first project where I've dumped a commercial object for some other purpose and been asked to share (see: shairport, for one), and after much thought I conclude - now, as then - that it's not the right thing for me to do in any project. There are legal and professional risks which I'm just not comfortable taking. That's not negotiable.

>But that's not to say I won't help you dump it yourself. I'll have a dump feature in the cart, and I'm sure someone will rapidly archive all the available systems.

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#97

Post by seanc722 » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 2:21 AM UTC

Grazester wrote: post #56

donatj wrote: post #5

I can't wait for him to start selling these! I would buy one in a hot minute. My Saturn is collecting dust and there are so many games I just can't get my hands on for my Saturn, and emulation in my experience hardly works. It's way too weird a machine.

There is already an SD card drive for the Saturn. https://gdemu.wordpress.com/ To achieve this did not require fully reverse engineering the cdrom controller but it is great someone did though.

Indeed! There are mod chips, etc. He ended up aiming for something that didn't require ripping it open and soldering.

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#98

Post by uxp100 » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 2:25 AM UTC

Grazester wrote: post #63

christoph wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dreamcast games varied in size massively. Crazy Taxi was only around 100mb. So small in fact that when initially burnt to a CD the drive couldn't load files fast enough (as files were closer to the inner ring of the disc). Tools were then released to 'pad' the game files out to be closer to the outer edge with a dummy file. Files close to the outer edge can be read faster as the drive laser can cover more distance pe…

I believe they did no such thing(proof would be greatly appreciated). What they did was downsample the audio files and the pvr game textures. To achieve what you claim would more than likely mean game engine modification and without the source code I dont see that happening.

Honestly, inserting compression doesn't sound impossible. Difficult, but a few months and a team of people and it sounds achievable. Warez folks do some crazy stuff.

However, I read some forums from the time, it sounds like the results weren't great. Mainly folks notice sound triggering noticably late. So uh, Maybe instead of downsampling they built a MP3 decoder, but to use the existing system, it couldn't stream the audio, so they had to decompress the clip completely into a buffer before playback?

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#99

Post by Griever » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 2:29 AM UTC

jonhohle wrote: post #66

voltagex_ wrote: post #37

I'm so so glad he mentions archiving in this video - I don't think enough thought has been given to the impact of DRM on museum collections in 10-50 years.

I'm going through this as a relatively new PS Vita owner. Sony decided to go with proprietary game cartridges, proprietary memory cards, and DRM'd digital distribution. Despite the quality of the games and hardware, the system didn't do well commercially and it appears Sony has lost interest in the system and it's sibling PS TV/Vita TV. There are a lot of great games (including PS1 and PSP games) for the system, but…

Absolutely. The PSP is still my favorite way to go and play the classic PS1 games like FF7, Metal Gear Solid, etc. It really is a wonderful device, but the DRM Sony has repeatedly strengthened over the years has made using it somewhat of a gamble.

It'd be a shame if we suddenly couldn't play these classics anymore just because Sony wants us to repurchase it on Console XYZ.

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#100

Post by bane » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 2:39 AM UTC

voltagex_ wrote: post #37

I'm so so glad he mentions archiving in this video - I don't think enough thought has been given to the impact of DRM on museum collections in 10-50 years.

There's actually a very large collection of Saturn games archives at archive.org. They're MESS compatible CHD files (I wish other emulators would support it, it's a good way to handle large drive copies), but it's a fairly good collection.