reminded how 10 years ago upper class was trying to initiate grass roots and steer protests against options expensing. They failed and as a result we have RSU pretty much everywhere instead of options. The startups are the last bastion, and i think with the modern "who needs an IPO with such great C round (and related caching out for chosen ones)" approach, people will start to get the picture and the RSU will come t…
Who pays when startup employees keep their equity?
91–100 of 243 posts
Re: Who pays when startup employees keep their equity?
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
A single person making 100k+ has a ~90% chance of saving enough in 10 years to retire in a cheap location. That is a life changing amount of money.
That's a great bet if you ignore the possibility of not being single your entire life.
Giving up 500k in salary for a chance to make 500k in stock is a terrible bet. Alternatively, only save up 100k in 10 years, go to Vegas and bet it all at slightly negative odds. You can set things up for a 20% chance of getting ~500k which is better odds than many startups while still having more day to day money.
Re: Who pays when startup employees keep their equity?
#93It's interesting to see the popular response to this thread being one where people think employees are better off with salary over options. This seems crazy to me as I have watched many close friends cash out options from companies including Google, Yelp, Apple and Pandora and buy houses (some with cash), start companies, become investors and/or take long sabbaticals with the proceeds from their options. With salary…
In practice when you're a technical founder (or cofounder with one), you might have three fantastic people you can't afford, great technical roles. They'd do great work for 40 hours per week, they believe in your vision and you, because your vision has a competitive advantage they can execute well with, and you can essentially generate equity value out of thin air together. They cost way less than the amount of value that could be generated, so they make sense from a business investment perspective.
But the company just might not have the funds yet.
So, besides giving out options as compensation, or giving out a market salary, the third, practical alternative, is not to hire any of the three persons, but instead work for 130 hours per week doing their 3 jobs and your job, and sleep 5.4 hours per day.
This divides to 32.5 hours per "job" (130 / (3+1)). In practice by not hiring these great engineers, you've also not hired their coffee breaks, lunches, not hired the time they spend reading Hacker News, reading about new technologies, trying various stuff such as a new framework they'd like to try, you've not hired the time they spend writing documentation or any kind of testing whatsoever, and you've not hired any downtime they spend waiting for anything whatsoever. In fact, with these concessions, the 130 hours turns out to be an exaggeration.
So, some people call the results of this "technical debt", which is a bit of a misnomer.
It's a misnomer because if the project doesn't start generating value, you can kill it and nobody has to clean up anything. So in this sense, rather than a "technical debt" - it's more of a technical option. Instead of generating employee stock options, you've created technical stock options, where if the technical results actually make it rain, then at that point the project is investable, people can be hired for a market salary, and they can rewrite all the code that you've optioned. In this very real sense it really is an option, rather than debt.
So, in practice a lot of silicon valley seems to work this way. A lot of successful people have succeeded using more or less this formula.
We've all heard lots of stories of seasoned developers being brought on to clean up spaghetti code written by a founder or cofounder, that proved the business case but was hideous, poorly documented, structured, tested, with even security and backup policies and redundancy policies making it a miracle that nothing melted down.
So when one wonders why some founders work so much - well, this is the reason.
The people who could have written all this properly from the start, weren't available given the finances the company had at the time.
Often other people aren't willing to share the vision, and if you want something built, regardless of its value, at times you just have to do it - before anyone has funded you.
So this is a very real third possibility that many people do not realize really is a kind of "option".
An essay on this is here:
http://higherorderlogic.com/2010/07/bad-code-isnt-technical-...
Re: Who pays when startup employees keep their equity?
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Any IPO ultimately results in people earning money who don't "work" for that money - that means the actual workers lose out everytime. It is wrong to believe that people would invest large amounts of money randomly without spending significant amounts of their time to make sure the investment will create them some returns. Also they have the risk to actually loose 100% of their investment, which some guy employed a…
Your argument is surely moot because it assumes that startup employees take on no risk. Not to mention conflating IPO with startup options/shares. There are many companies out there that have never, nor will, take investment or IPO yet are still successful. There's also an argument to say that any company that isn't profitable from day one shouldn't exist in the first place. Your argument also suggests that founders…
I wrote "which some guy employed at Google with a 6 figure income doesn't have." -> you are free to work at an established company and have no risk, I didn't say that startup employees have no risks.
Otherwise they wouldn't get equity, wouldn't they? So please don't twist my words.
> There are many companies out there that have never, nor will, take investment or IPO yet are still successful
Great, but how is this related to anything I wrote? My comment was about investors and companies that accept investors money, nothing else.
> There's also an argument to say that any company that isn't profitable from day one shouldn't exist in the first place.
Isn't Google or Facebook highly profitable? It's hard to imagine that a company can reach such a scale in such a short period of time without outside investment.
No society can have private property rights and freedoms without the right to private investment. If I am not allowed to decide for myself where I will invest the money I have earned then I have no money, the state owns it instead.
> Your argument also suggests that founders must go "cap in hand" to investors to beg for startup capital
No, not at all. I didn't suggest anything like that.
> In all scenarios I do not see a positive outcome for the employee, and it seems only more and more difficult to attract new talent
Sorry, but software development is one of the most privileged and highest paid professions. You make it sound as if we are all working in coal mines.
Re: Who pays when startup employees keep their equity?
#95Re: Who pays when startup employees keep their equity?
#96It's interesting to see the popular response to this thread being one where people think employees are better off with salary over options. This seems crazy to me as I have watched many close friends cash out options from companies including Google, Yelp, Apple and Pandora and buy houses (some with cash), start companies, become investors and/or take long sabbaticals with the proceeds from their options. With salary…
And with companies like Uber that seem to plan to never have an IPO, and also this meme that it's good to screw ex-employees out of their vested shares, it's not necessarily an unreasonable assumption.
Re: Who pays when startup employees keep their equity?
#97Wouldn't RSUs open employees to a different and more punitive tax regime (income tax) than options (which would fall under capital gains if you exercised early enough)?
Examples:
Junior Engineer Sally joins Company A and is offered 0.25% of the company in RSUs. Company A recent raised at a 20M post money with a preferred share price of $1 and a FMV of $0.20. She owes tax on $10k of RSU gains. Company A either: 1) Buys back $4000 of stock in order to cover taxes 2) Provides a $4000 signing bonus to cover taxes.
Senior Engineer Bill joins Company B and is offered 0.05% in RSUS. Company B recently raised at a $500M valuation with a preferred share price of $10 and FMV of $3. He owes tax on $75k of RSU gains. Company B either 1) Buys back $30k of stock or 2) provides a $30k signing bonus.
Re: Who pays when startup employees keep their equity?
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's a great bet if you ignore the possibility of not being single your entire life.
You can still do remote work from a cheap location, or stay and have FU money. Giving up 500k in salary for a chance to make 500k in stock is a terrible bet. Alternatively, only save up 100k in 10 years, go to Vegas and bet it all at slightly negative odds. You can set things up for a 20% chance of getting ~500k which is better odds than many startups while still having more day to day money.
Wouldn't the employer insist on paying in the local salary range?
Re: Who pays when startup employees keep their equity?
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
Of course I have seen people lose. I've personally lost on options as well. I didn't make the assertion that you can't lose. With options, you are betting that the company will not fail and that it will become much more valuable. Both are statistically unlikely. You are also betting that you won't leave or be otherwise eliminated before the exit. Mainly I'm framing this in comparison to additional salary which is als…
How much is needed for something to qualify as "significant wealth"? You seem to be dismissing differences in salary as unimportant, so it's fine to take a pay cut in exchange for even a small chance at significant wealth, because that's all that matters. Let's say the salary difference is $50,000/year. Over 20 years, that's maybe half a million dollars, post tax, that you gain by ditching options. Maybe that's not s…
I'm CEO and co-founder of a funded company. We pay competitive salaries + options. I don't begrudge someone who isn't interested in options. Options are actually expensive to me. We are still fairly early stage (Series A funded) so the founders own most of the company and the option pool primarily dilutes the founders. I want to give options to someone who wants them. I'm fine paying more salary in lieu of of options.
I think of options like a profit-sharing plan in a mature company. If the company does very well then the employees should share in that success. Some folks feel that paying very low salaries and heavy options breeds loyalty. I personally don't subscribe to that. I prefer to pay something competitive and have options as nice upside for the employee.
Re: Who pays when startup employees keep their equity?
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
This. And things are not really comparable to big finance jobs as the bonus is more or less expected to some degree or people leave to places where they will get the bonus. Startups are a lottery to a large degree, and for employees without significant equity, the odds don't seem great.
The finance industry has its own risks. It's a tournament type structure where as long as you stay in the tournament you are doing very well, but if you fall out you can end up doing pretty poorly. Whereas the tech industry, at least for the last several years, has offered a soft landing to many of those that choose to enter the startup lottery and lost. Probably the least risky choice among high paying jobs that exi…
Though it's likely that your first several years of awesome salary will be spent paying off loans.