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College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

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Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#91
post #48
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's financed by debt. That is, it's probably already unaffordable because the debts are going to be crippling, but it's not felt yet. It's like you're already severely poisoned but are not yet feeling the effects, and more people around see you and consider the poison for themselves.

Sounds like the solution might be to ease back on guaranteed student loans and tighten up available credit so it goes to qualified borrowers who are likely to be able to pay back what they borrow, rather than mandating that everyone who wants to goes to college without any consideration for ability to repay what they've borrowed. But then, that would result in decreasing enrollment rates and hysterics in the headline…

by subsidizing education so heavily in pursuit of increased attendance rates, we've driven prices sky-high

At least for me, the relationship you're implying between subsidies and educational costs needs some explanation. If, say, three-quarters of a college's students are having 25-50% of their fees subsidized, what about those subsidies forces the college to raise their fees disproportionately to their costs?

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#92

I think a reality that will hopefully soon catch up with societal stigma in the United States is that college isn't right for everyone. I understand this as a separate point from college being unattainably expensive, but it is an important point. I have friends who would be mechanics, Peace Corps volunteers, electricians, or plumbers if they hadn't instead gone to a private 4-year institution, pressured to attend the…

> I think a reality that will hopefully soon catch up with societal stigma in the United States is that college isn't right for everyone The idea that this stigma exists is mostly a conservative pundit talking point used to justify cutting education budgets. If you look at labor market data, it's unsubstantiated. And if you visit middle America, you'll find plenty of people with disdain for college degrees. The Unite…

What do tertiary degrees get you? If you're an employer, why would you want to employ these people?

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#93

In my experience the middle and higher income brackets (middle and upper middle suburban class) is the bracket that is hurt the most by college costs. Too rich for substantial need-based financial aid, too poor to pay without big loans. The only answer is merit scholarships, but those can't go for everyone, so you end up with moms taking their kids to 1000 summer activities so they're competitive :-) Here's a possibl…

Hi fellow UT CS grad. I had to google for an article I remember reading a while ago but apparently over half of UT grads come from families that make over $100k+. It's not as bad as I thought but UT Austin has a much higher representation of (upper) middle class kids than lower class kids. https://www.texasobserver.org/are-texas-public-universities-... http://www.dailytexanonline.com/2015/10/14/ut-unspoken-low-i...

I didn't go to UT Austin! I wanted to but at the time I wasn't a US resident (just legal under my mom's visa), so no financial aid at all—I got a merit scholarship somewhere else.

What you said makes sense. If your family makes over $100k in Texas, you can definitely pay for most if not all your kid's college after FAFSA/any scholarships.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#94

I think a reality that will hopefully soon catch up with societal stigma in the United States is that college isn't right for everyone. I understand this as a separate point from college being unattainably expensive, but it is an important point. I have friends who would be mechanics, Peace Corps volunteers, electricians, or plumbers if they hadn't instead gone to a private 4-year institution, pressured to attend the…

It's not even that college isn't for everyone because there's jobs like plumbing for which you don't need a bachelor's degree for work, or to obtain the job.

It's that there's jobs like credit analyst which require a degree to obtain, which absolutely, do not, at all, require a degree.

It's mostly the latter that is so insane to me, and the solution isn't for kids to recognise they don't need the degree. Because if employers ask for one, even though it's stupid, they have little choice but to accept the system. (and no, not everyone can just start their own company and beat the system).

I have friends who have credit analyst jobs, they're literally on the phone contacting clients to pay back their debt if they forgot, and propose a payback plan if they have issues paying. That's about it. The title is one where you expect an undergrad degree and employers require one most of the time, but by age 16 most people have the competencies, safe for the deep voice and calm professional phone demeanour, to do this job.

And that scares me most. These degrees cost $30-50k, and they're useless, yet required. That really has to change.

The key point is this:

A degree should be a proxy for competence and skills particular to the job. i.e. you studied marketing, so let's hire you for a marketing job because you've got the skills.

But what a degree really is to employers, is a proxy for ambition, young-urban-professional normalcy, perhaps some level of a proxy for ethnicity or at least congeniality (oh, this employee will be like me, has a wife, kids, normal life, is dependable, not volatile etc), a proxy for a person valuing the long-term etc. i.e., oh you studied marketing, let's hire you for an unrelated job requiring no skills, because this degree is an easy first-order way to filter out the type of people we don't want to hire.

And that's bs, because it treats education as a giant money-wasting institution for employers to weed out those who aren't keen on following the system, or who see through it. That's NOT what education should be about and it's a travesty. Almost all my peers who went to uni didn't give a rats ass about learning as part of their formal uni education, it was simply not a part of their decision making process for university. Despite that, they're all curious, interesting individuals, who learn in their own time about their particular interests. That's really sad.

And that concerns me. Students choosing to pursue a skilled career over plumbing is another concern, but not nearly as significant for me (and in some cases not a concern at all).

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand this strategy, you send them to community college for the first two years, where they take their general ed requirements. Then they transfer to a "real" (expensive) college for the last two years, for the deeper/more specialized courses. It's not a bad strategy (we may do it with one of our children). But if higher cost is the problem, this solves less than half of it. Half because they still go to an…

Community College is cheap, really cheap. I took CC classes during the summer while I was in school, working an internship at the same time, to knock out some of my humanities classes. In total, it cost me around $1500 to take 15 credit hours of classes there (compared to $7k + fees for the same at my college). But, you're right, it does solve a little less than half the cost. Which is awesome! If you wanted to go to…

By the way, while we're on such topics, don't forget CLEP tests. You learn a topic well enough to pass the test, pay your fee, take a two-hour test, and (if you pass) wind up with college credit that is recognized by many (most?) universities.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#96

In my experience the middle and higher income brackets (middle and upper middle suburban class) is the bracket that is hurt the most by college costs. Too rich for substantial need-based financial aid, too poor to pay without big loans. The only answer is merit scholarships, but those can't go for everyone, so you end up with moms taking their kids to 1000 summer activities so they're competitive :-) Here's a possibl…

That experience sounds remarkably familiar. I know here in Mass at least UMass Amherst has a remarkably good computer science program for how cheap it can be (if you qualify for the right tuition credit programs by scoring well on standardized tests in high school). Though it's a poor indicator of an undergrad program, their CS grad program was ranked #25 in the country. While I understand your point, I take some iss…

That's definitely a good point. If you're in a low bracket and aren't able to get a full ride or good scholarship (doesn't mean you're bad or didn't work hard enough, but only a small % of people can get those), you're definitely going to be wondering if you can go to college at all. And if you barely afford to, there's all kinds of external costs associated with college (books, for example). Sometimes scholarships only cover tuition.

At least back home in Texas though, you can go to cheap community college and transfer to UT Austin or another UT campus. Two years is definitely better than four.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#97

I think a reality that will hopefully soon catch up with societal stigma in the United States is that college isn't right for everyone. I understand this as a separate point from college being unattainably expensive, but it is an important point. I have friends who would be mechanics, Peace Corps volunteers, electricians, or plumbers if they hadn't instead gone to a private 4-year institution, pressured to attend the…

Another piece of the problem, at least in the US, is the that a high school diploma, the highest degree attainable by purely public funding, is a certification of only the barest level of competency in communication and arithmetic.

The requirement for "BA or equivalent" in so many situations isn't because that position requires four years of advanced study; it's because four years of advanced study usually means a candidate can at least express themselves well in writing, think critically and do long division.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#98
post #86
post #43

College may become unaffordable, but education should not. With price pressure like this, I suspect online and other forms of post-high-school education will become more and more valuable. Employers will start looking at them with more attention, and definitely certificates of passing serious exams will become (more) valuable. Of course, these exams certificates are not going to be free, and even the online courses a…

College/University has not solely been about education in a long time. It's about signalling [1][2], and therefore it's a competitive advantage. The accessibility of signalling is inversely proportional to its value -- it's no longer exclusive. This happens with certifications too. [1] https://www.jstor.org/stable/1882010 [2] http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2014/04/bryan_caplan_on.htm...

As signalling becomes too costly, it can become separated from skill certification.

Much like a diploma from Yale now is not a signal of exceptionally good knowledge but a signal of financial ability and having the right connections, going to any full-time university can become such a signal.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#99
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not send your future kids to community college and then have them transfer?

I spent my last 2 years of high school getting an AS before going to my state school. I wouldn't recommend it to high achieving students, at all.

You wouldn't.. why?

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#100
I'd be interested in seeing how a "single payer" approach to college financing would work.

High level - The government pours many billions of dollars into colleges and universities every year, but because the money is disseminated via millions of individual loans to individual students, any buying power (and downward pressure on prices) that the government could provide is effectively eliminated. For a university this is a best case scenario: sell a "necessary" product to millions of individual customers with infinite money.

If instead, the universities could only "sell" to the government, the government would be able to actually demand meaningful concessions in price.

I'm thinking something like:

1. Students -$-> Gov't -$-> Universities (many more sellers than buyers)

Instead of:

2. Gov't -$-> Students -$-> Universities (many more buyers than sellers)

Easy to see how case 1 would keep prices lower in an ideal world...

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