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A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

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Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#91

Post by chongli »

woodman wrote: post #33
conception wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also worried about the actual effects of motion sickness once it becomes actually mass consumer affordable. Generally, reports are that VR can be particularly rough for most folks.

As I understand it, the motion sickness is directly related to rendering lag. Outside of VR there isn't much of an incentive to reduce that lag - as the only people who really care much about it now are the most enthusiastic of PC gamers. There is a lot of buffering and synchronization between the software and our retinas right now, so the hardware advancement needed to enable motion sick free VR (low lag GPU and dis…

No, it's not just due to rendering lag. Motion sickness is caused by a disparity between the what the eyes perceive as motion and the vestibular system of the inner ear [0].

That's not all, though. Another major problem with VR is the lack of compensation for vergence [1] and accommodation [2]. These two systems are critical for depth perception and when they are not accounted for the result is confusion of the visual system, eye strain, fatigue, and even nausea.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestibular_system

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergence

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accommodation_(eye)

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#93

Post by StavrosK »

sergiosgc wrote: post #68
diziet wrote: post #23

VR is amazing and the opportunity is incredible. However, I am worried worried that the technology to produce high enough resolution displays will take some time to get here. Without smartphones driving the demand, will we get to 5-10k dpi displays for VR tech? We have 800 or so dpi displays rolling out, with current generation devices filling their FOV with about 500 dpi screens. We're driving 1.3-1.8m pixels per ey…

I own a Vive. We are quite a few years from having HMDs where you can't see pixelation. I estimate we need a tenfold increase in density. However, and this is something you need to try to believe, pixelation does not affect immersion. The human brain is amazing at coping with vision defects. When in a game, you absolutely forget about pixel visibility. You are just "in there". So, it is true that you can't get detail…

When you're in a game, yes, but I want my VR for working in a virtual desktop, and, for that, you absolutely do need all the resolution you can get.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#94

Post by partiallypro »

In all of my experiencing of the new VR products, I am firmly in the position that it's not ready for public consumption yet and won't be for quite some time. The only real reason it's being pushed hard is because people have a fear of missing out. Meanwhile, if I were a company I'd be focusing on AR, because at least there you can push for enterprise customers which won't need the full immersion yet that a general consumer will clamor for. (I also think AR has a much brighter future)

I expect a lot of VR units are shown off to friends and thrown into the closet or put on a shelf to collect dust. It's something you show off, but not something you'll (at least 98% of people) use.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#96

Post by whatever_dude »

baldfat wrote: post #87

Half-Life 3 on VR would be the killer app. It would be this generations Lotus 1 2 3. Though I personally feel VR for video games are a lot like Wii its awesome for a while then its collecting dust throughout the world. I really think the future is Augmented Reality and VR will be for mostly media consumption.

I disagree with that. I played (and finished) HL2 in VR and while it was more of a prototype (e.g. loading screens were static) it already proved modern(ish) FPS games are not the best application of VR. Too many kinks of the genre do not translate well, while other features of VR are left unexplored. For that matter, racing or space exploration games (where the protagonist is seated) translate way better.

So I think the killer for VR will be something else entirely. Still from a first person perspective, but way different from a modern shooter. In the same way it took us a while to perfect what FPSs should be like, or what platformers should be like, we're a bit far from what the perfect VR experience genres will be.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#97

Post by burkaman »

partiallypro wrote: post #94

In all of my experiencing of the new VR products, I am firmly in the position that it's not ready for public consumption yet and won't be for quite some time. The only real reason it's being pushed hard is because people have a fear of missing out. Meanwhile, if I were a company I'd be focusing on AR, because at least there you can push for enterprise customers which won't need the full immersion yet that a general c…

I think it's clearly not ready for anything like the adoption levels of consoles, but people who own VR products definitely use them. It's too expensive, too low resolution, and too clunky to conquer the world yet, but it's an excellent first generation.

What you're describing sounds more like AR to me. Everyone I know who bought Google Glass showed it off to their friends and then never used it again. I know AR has obviously improved since then, but VR seems to be the more proven technology.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#98

Post by levesque »

moron4hire wrote: post #90
levesque wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the locomotion issues will be the end of this round of VR. Teleporting around the virtual space is not immersive by any means. Direct movement (e.g. with a joystick) with current head mounted displays automatically results in motion sickness for the majority of users. No solution in sight, as far as I know.

I've ran hundreds of demos on the DK2 over the last two years and in that time one person took the headset off because they felt weird. It's not "the majority of users" by any stretch. I don't know where you're getting your information from. And we're not talking about being pitched over, puking your guts out, either. It's a mild discomfort that only persists if the user tries to push through it. Locomotion is both d…

There are multiple testimonies on the internet about head mounted displays along with joystick movement inducing motion sickness. It gets worse as the pace of the movements increase. Haven't run any experiments myself, so perhaps you are right. What is the scale of the DK2 demo? If it is a room scale demo you can't infer much from it. The issue would be the addition of the joystick movement with the head movement, resulting in a final movement vector that is in conflict with your inner ear. Any of those two movements taken on their own (e.g. moving your head while standing still, or moving with joystick while keeping your head straight) would not result in any conflicting signal.

Other applications of VR still apply, but this I believe will remain a major hinderance for FPS style games.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#99

Post by burkaman »

levesque wrote: post #89
baldfat wrote: post #87

Half-Life 3 on VR would be the killer app. It would be this generations Lotus 1 2 3. Though I personally feel VR for video games are a lot like Wii its awesome for a while then its collecting dust throughout the world. I really think the future is Augmented Reality and VR will be for mostly media consumption.

I think the locomotion issues will be the end of this round of VR. Teleporting around the virtual space is not immersive by any means. Direct movement (e.g. with a joystick) with current head mounted displays automatically results in motion sickness for the majority of users. No solution in sight, as far as I know.

I think the solution is just that you get used to it after a little while.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#100

Post by sergiosgc »

JibberMeTimbers wrote: post #84
sergiosgc wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own a Vive. Zero motion sickness on room scale games, zero when flying around in Elite:Dangerous. However, get me in something with wheels and it's hell. Rolling in the buggy in Elite is bad, driving in Project Cars is worse. I've learned that, in Elite, if I look at where the buggy is going (it power slides a lot), then I almost avoid motion sickness. Project Cars, though, I can't play. Cornering, at high speed, c…

Does a 1st person view from the driver's seat have any impact?

VR or no VR, I always play car games from the perspective of the driver's seat or, in some cases, from the front bumper cam. Playing from the third person perspective cam is a bit too arcade for me.

So, my description above is for playing from the driver's seat perspective.

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