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The limited value of a computer science education

nathanmarz.com

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Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#91

Post by nikdaheratik »

I have very mixed feelings about this article. For one thing, there are a couple of different kinds of CS programs. The basic division is, or used to be, whether it was more Math or Engineering heavy. In fact, some schools attach the program to a BS in the Math department and others in the engineering with more exposure to EE and Computer Engineering. Neither of these are necessarily helpful for becoming a programmer in today's market, but they do generate very different experiences.

The biggest benefit for me was the complete understanding and model you get of the entire computer. How it works, what theories it is based on, why things are the way they are (in terms of the Turing model, the way microprocessors work, etc).

I don't believe this knowledge is helpful from a software engineering point, and I may have been a better programmer if I had spent those years learning more about how to work as a team and how to solve real-world problems. However, I do feel that it has allowed me to switch between different fields of programming without completely being thrown for a loop. It has allowed me to understand the issues that crop up when something goes wrong on a much deeper level, or why problems crop up on one part of "the stack" that I may not have understood had I focused merely on learning how to program. These are personally valuable to me, whether or not they may have been more valuable to my career.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#92

Post by jacobevelyn »

_delirium wrote: post #8

I may have been lucky, but I don't recognize this statement when I think of my own CS curriculum: The vast majority of what a programmer does, forming good abstractions and avoiding complexity, is almost completely untouched by computer science curriculums. That's the majority of what my CS degree covered, in several different programming paradigms. Even the idea that there are "programming paradigms" is something I…

I see complaints about big-O notation being a useless interview torture device all the time, and yet I'd be hard-pressed to find something else in my very theoretical CS education that (a) was easier to learn (it's the most hand-wavy math I've ever encountered), (b) I retained as well, or (c) is as useful to me as a full-stack web developer.

I can't speak for others, but knowing when to use an array vs. when to use a set feels pretty fundamental to me being able to do my job well.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#93

Post by malyk »

superuser2 wrote: post #76
catmanjan wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most parents insist on kids going to uni specifically to get a job. If you can get the same knowledge for free (assuming you have to pay for uni), then what's the value?

If college were about knowledge transfer, we'd all stay home and read. The value is in guided discussions, meetings with your professors, comments on your papers and code, making friends as you finally begin to understand difficult material together in the library in the middle of the night, and 4 years of living in an environment with an anomalously high signal to noise ratio of smart people throwing 100% effort int…

Except most colleges outside the elite (and probably a lot of students at those too) expend more like 30% of effort growing intellectually. There is also significant social growth, generally, but a lot of time at college (probably most) isn't spent on intellectual endeavors.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#94

Post by elliotec »

capote wrote: post #87
taneq wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought this was the case but wasn't 100% sure which this poster meant. So in the last sentence where they say 'college' do you think they're talking about secondary or tertiary? It might just be a confusing-to-parse post.

To me, (colloquially and ignoring subtleties): university = college = tertiary education = higher education = postsecondary education = school = uni

Yes, thank you.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#95

Post by kctess5 »

nikdaheratik wrote: post #91

I have very mixed feelings about this article. For one thing, there are a couple of different kinds of CS programs. The basic division is, or used to be, whether it was more Math or Engineering heavy. In fact, some schools attach the program to a BS in the Math department and others in the engineering with more exposure to EE and Computer Engineering. Neither of these are necessarily helpful for becoming a programmer…

Despite those benefits you list, you still don't think that knowledge makes you a better software engineer?

I definitely think that understanding the lower levels helps me write better software, largely for the reasons you list.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#96

Post by aethos »

gigq wrote: post #11
spraak wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never thought of that, but seems very possible

As someone with a computer science degree I can say I've never questioned it being on my companies job postings. But when I think about it I'd rather see a candidate with an excellent github account than a degree.

Excellent github != good programmer

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#97

Post by treve »

capote wrote: post #90
wyqydsyq wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it's clear many university institutes and projects have benefited the wider public, I think he was specifically referring to the value of university to an individual, for most people (excepting those who are studying sciences to enter a specific niche field where they wouldn't be able to pick up the necessary skills anywhere else) university is indeed a waste of time and money. I'm a 22 year old developer based…

Once again, you've completely missed the point. I am trying to say that the value of university has nothing to do with your ability to get a job. I'm trying to plead with people to stop trying to compare university with a job or measure the value of a university in terms of a job. If you can't see the value in university, good for you; nobody's forcing you to go.

I still think it's worth talking about this though, as so many people DO think its the only way to go and take on a tremendous financial risk thinking they do it for the job.

I wouldn't contest it's useful, but I'd definitely feel that for most it's probably not worth the price of a US university.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#98

Post by ctvo »

capote wrote: post #65
InclinedPlane wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a degree in Mathematics, I think my educational experience has made me a better developer than if I'd have pursued a pure CS degree alone. Does that mean that I think everyone who wants to develop software should get a math degree? Not even a little bit. But I also don't think they should pursue a CS degree either. In the end the answer is "it's complicated, and there isn't one good answer yet", but we don't g…

You're still, in this post, trying to extract the value of a degree in terms of job power. That's what I'm arguing against. I paid $180,000 to go to university and I think it was 100% worth it, regardless of my job or how much it helped my job. My selection of 7 points was mainly to make a point , that point being that I see a lot of value in university, many people do, and we should all stop trying to fit all of thi…

In what world do we live in that a university education has nothing to do with employment? Not all of us are lucky enough to spend 180,000 on an education and not care about its impact on our job prospects.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#99

Post by capote »

stale2002 wrote: post #83
capote wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, and I completely understand, but it's besides my point. My point is to implore people to stop looking at a CS degree as just a means to get a job. If you look at it that way, of course you're not going to find 100% value in it. Getting a job is simply not what a CS degree is for. It was never declared to be for this purpose—nobody claims it's for this purpose (except maybe some schools for marketing purp…

Thats totally fair. But what you need to understand is that the vast vast majority of young people don't give a shit about anything other than the getting the job part of the equation. Young people need money to buy food and pay for rent and to have fun. Thats what they care about. I went to a top tech school, but I know so many people at the school who DIDN'T go into tech and are now working as consultants doing 80…

You're right. Which is why I have been pushing to entirely separate the concepts of university education and of a job in the minds of Hacker News readers.

If you want a job, go to dev bootcamp. Or online school. Or watch YouTube videos. Or just get a job. Or go to school then get a job.

If you want to go to school, go to school.

Let's all get along and stop trying to dismiss the other path as invalid, worthless, or dumb. It's everyone's prerogative to go to school or not. Stop comparing the two or drawing associations.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#100

Post by Secretmapper »

mercurysmessage wrote: post #18

People don't understand what computer science is. Don't claim you did CS and it didn't teach you to become a developer, that's not what CS is, and I'm surprised that after a bachelor's and master's the author doesn't acknowledge that.

Ding! Ding! Ding! It's a bit sad that most 'CS degrees are worthless' detractors don't realize this.
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