Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns • Hacker News Board

Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#91

Post by bllguo » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 12:58 AM UTC

sievebrain wrote: post #82

mindcrime wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's harder and harder to sympathize with the idea that firearms in the US could effectively combat governmental tyranny. People keep trotting out this argument, and it remains just as wrong. "Regular" firearms by themselves probably aren't enough to resist the US government, but that isn't the point. Firearms are just one tool out of many that would be in play if an actual armed revolution broke out. And what people…

The only thing that really matters is (1) and if your revolution requires military defections to succeed then you didn't need amateur firearms to begin with. Unless you believe a bunch of randoms with rifles are a match for a professionally trained army equipped with the latest tech. In which case I think Iraq may wish to disagree with you.

A revolution would not involve conventional warfare (invasion of Iraq) but asymmetric, guerilla warfare (Vietnam, occupation of Iraq)...

Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#92

Post by int_19h » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 1:06 AM UTC

knodi123 wrote: post #67

bifrost wrote: post #6

IMHO this whole movement is out there to point out how ridiculous some legislation is. Pretty much anyone with a brain can make a deadly weapon with time and materials. They even make guns in prisons, so of course someone could 3d print the serialized parts of a gun. In certain types of guns those 3d printed parts are only minorly structual so they don't receive that much force, you could even conceivably hand carve…

I wouldn't say "anybody with a brain". It still requires a lot of time, motivation, and uncommon resources. The real question is , should the law take any effort toward minimizing gun ownership by dangerous fruitcakes? If yes, then making it hard to trivially 3d print a gun is kind of necessary, otherwise, like you said, anybody with a brain could do it. Instead of now, where it requires a bit more.

It really doesn't require a lot of time nor resources. A 12 gauge zip gun is literally two steel tubes of the right diameter (can be found in most hardware store), and a tube cap with a hole that can have a bolt screwed in to serve as a firing pin. For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1wV3lmbSv4

Now, it is single-shot - but because they are so easy and cheap to make, someone who wanted to cause mayhem could just make and preload several dozen, and discard them as they shoot them. Still plenty deadly.

That's the thing, really... guns aren't particularly complicated mechanically to begin with, and they are even less complicated if you strip them down to bare essentials - which, if you only intend to use it at a close range, still leaves them quite functional.

On the other hand, the reason why guns are so simple is because most of the complexity is in the ammo. While that can be reloaded, it requires primers - and those can't easily be made at home.

So, if you want gun control that actually works (in a sense of preventing dangerous people from owning an overly destructive device), it has to be primarily about ammo, not guns.

Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#93

Post by int_19h » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 1:17 AM UTC

Aelinsaar wrote: post #71

abakker wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is easier to track distributing a sold product. It is very difficult to track what a person makes in the comfort of their home. I dont think the federal government keeps a registry for the purchase of milling machines.

If everyone who wants to own (to keep using this one example) an AR-15 had to buy a CNC, that would be quite the commitment. If the current model of people buying many milling machines and selling their services is the only viable way to avoid that, then you've already seen the feds start to take notice. After all, if you can get word of mouth around enough to make money, you're making enough noise to be heard. 3D pr…

But that's the thing - with the present level of technology, you can have a device that is, essentially, pre-programmed CNC to make AR lowers (which is what Ghost Gunner is, for example) for under $300.

To make a fully functional firearm from there, you also need a complete upper - can be had for another $400 or so these days; and a complete lower part kit with buffer tube and stock - can be had for less than $100. For a total of $800, some assembly required (or you can pay another $50 and have pretty much any gunsmith put it together for you).

So basically, a person can take GG and produce an unregistered, untraceable, no-background-check-required AR with it for $800-900. For comparison, the Bushmaster AR that was used in Sandy Hook shooting costs ~$700.

Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#94

Post by hga » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 1:27 AM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #92

knodi123 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say "anybody with a brain". It still requires a lot of time, motivation, and uncommon resources. The real question is , should the law take any effort toward minimizing gun ownership by dangerous fruitcakes? If yes, then making it hard to trivially 3d print a gun is kind of necessary, otherwise, like you said, anybody with a brain could do it. Instead of now, where it requires a bit more.

It really doesn't require a lot of time nor resources. A 12 gauge zip gun is literally two steel tubes of the right diameter (can be found in most hardware store), and a tube cap with a hole that can have a bolt screwed in to serve as a firing pin. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1wV3lmbSv4 Now, it is single-shot - but because they are so easy and cheap to make, someone who wanted to cause mayhem could…

And with US civilian ammo production above 12 billion rounds per year and increasing, 3 million rimfire (and not increasing due to the higher capital costs for than machinery), plus substantial imports, plus the seconds we are sold from military production, especially at Lake City (ATK has a win-win-win contract where the DoD can outright cancel orders and ATK can then run the materials they've bought through the government's machinery), well, that barn door has been wide open for 7 years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9313_United_States_...

Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#95

Post by hga » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 1:31 AM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #93

Aelinsaar wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If everyone who wants to own (to keep using this one example) an AR-15 had to buy a CNC, that would be quite the commitment. If the current model of people buying many milling machines and selling their services is the only viable way to avoid that, then you've already seen the feds start to take notice. After all, if you can get word of mouth around enough to make money, you're making enough noise to be heard. 3D pr…

But that's the thing - with the present level of technology, you can have a device that is, essentially, pre-programmed CNC to make AR lowers (which is what Ghost Gunner is, for example) for under $300. To make a fully functional firearm from there, you also need a complete upper - can be had for another $400 or so these days; and a complete lower part kit with buffer tube and stock - can be had for less than $100. F…

The Ghost Gunner drills/machines the right holes in an 80% receiver, it doesn't start with a 0% receiver: http://www.80percentarms.com/products/0-billet-ar-15-lower-r...

But it's not very difficult to start at that level: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-cartel-gunsmiths $25K for a pro CNC machine isn't much in the scheme of things.

Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#96

Post by deadfece » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 2:50 AM UTC

0xfeba wrote: post #24

madengr wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why the 2A states "arms" and not "firearms".

Right. If you ignore some 200 years of jurisprudence, you might have a point.

In the present day, civilians own tanks, cannons, rocket launchers, grenades, machine guns, explosives, etc. This has largely been the case for 200 plus years. If we ignore the some 200 years of jurisprudence supporting that ownership, then what?

Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#97

Post by donw » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 3:04 AM UTC

Taniwha wrote: post #77

fudged71 wrote: post #49

It's really interesting when I tell people that I'm in the 3D printing industry and their first reaction is to tell me someone 3D printed a gun. So many people know about it now, and I don't think it's a bad thing either. It gets people thinking about what complex things can be created with this technology. I believe the story has been an overall positive educational tool for the industry and the mainstream's underst…

I run a small Makerspace, I see a teenage boy come in the door every month or so, eye the printers, and ask if they can print a gun .... that gives me a good chance to explain that making your own hand gun is illegal and that using a printer doesn't change that.

You can manufacture firearms for personal use across the US -- even in California -- provided those arms otherwise comply with the law[1].

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-individual-need-license...

Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#98

Post by Aelinsaar » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 3:40 AM UTC

hga wrote: post #95

int_19h wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's the thing - with the present level of technology, you can have a device that is, essentially, pre-programmed CNC to make AR lowers (which is what Ghost Gunner is, for example) for under $300. To make a fully functional firearm from there, you also need a complete upper - can be had for another $400 or so these days; and a complete lower part kit with buffer tube and stock - can be had for less than $100. F…

The Ghost Gunner drills/machines the right holes in an 80% receiver, it doesn't start with a 0% receiver: http://www.80percentarms.com/products/0-billet-ar-15-lower-r... But it's not very difficult to start at that level: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-cartel-gunsmiths $25K for a pro CNC machine isn't much in the scheme of things.

For a cartel? It's nothing. For most people who want a particular gun, and don't intend to monetize the purchase, never mind the time taken to learn how to work and maintain it? That's a hell of a thing to be honest.

Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#99

Post by Frondo » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 3:41 AM UTC

hga wrote: post #90

jonstokes wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the most interesting things about the gun rights community is how strenuously this exact question of "where do you draw the bright line that, once crossed, you'll rise up?" is avoided. You know how that guy took that video of himself asking anti-abortion protestors, "if abortion is murder, then shouldn't we put women who procure abortions on trial for murder?" and they all just short-circuited, like they'd nev…

That's because a lot of us don't want to let anyone know exactly when we'll take up arms, especially the more they have to lose and the more covert they might want to be about it. Me, I have a number of declared lines in the sand, the first and most obvious is required registration of all firearms. Although the kinds of enemy of the state I'd become is not so obvious, e.g. I won't start wacking government officials.…

Heh, and I don't want anyone like you judging when it is a good idea to overthrow the government. Frankly speaking, I already don't trust the judgment of anyone who talks so casually about revolution as you've done here ("I have a number of declared lines in the sand"?????). I have far more confidence in the current system than anything that would emerge when the internet tough guys get together to try and take it down.

I have zero confidence that rational, reasonable people (and "I have a number of declared lines in the sand" and other such statements is not rational nor reasonable) would be included in the new politics following that revolution, and that would make me worried for how my friends, family, loved ones would be treated on the other side of such a revolution.

Re: Cody Wilson, the man who wants Americans to 3D print their own guns

#100

Post by Aelinsaar » Tue, Jun 07, 2016, 3:43 AM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #93

Aelinsaar wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If everyone who wants to own (to keep using this one example) an AR-15 had to buy a CNC, that would be quite the commitment. If the current model of people buying many milling machines and selling their services is the only viable way to avoid that, then you've already seen the feds start to take notice. After all, if you can get word of mouth around enough to make money, you're making enough noise to be heard. 3D pr…

But that's the thing - with the present level of technology, you can have a device that is, essentially, pre-programmed CNC to make AR lowers (which is what Ghost Gunner is, for example) for under $300. To make a fully functional firearm from there, you also need a complete upper - can be had for another $400 or so these days; and a complete lower part kit with buffer tube and stock - can be had for less than $100. F…

The cost argument is sound, and I'm not disputing it, but rather I'm thinking in the broader terms of the "Gun Control" debate. At some point in the future, maybe a decade, maybe two, supply-side gun control is going to be a pointless exercise. My argument however, is that the time has not yet come, although it's clearly on the horizon.

For now "Just get a CNC mill and learn how to use it" is still a substantial hurdle. I think it's fair to say that it's a hurdle that Adam Lanza wouldn't have managed to overcome.