Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979) • Hacker News Board

Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#91

Post by acidflask » Mon, May 30, 2016, 1:28 PM UTC

alankay wrote: post #83

justin66 wrote: post #9

"I don't know how many of you have ever met Dijkstra, but you probably know that arrogance in computer science is measured in nano-Dijkstras." - Alan Kay

This quote keeps on showing up out of context. Edsger and I got along quite well. He loved to be the way he was and pushed it. His friend Bob Barton (the great genius of the B5000 design) was very similar in loving to push buttons and being very critical of the not-quite-a-field that we have. When the U of Utah faculty complained to Dave Evans about Barton, Evans said "We don't care if they're prima donnas as long as…

Would you happen to have any insight into the question that brought me to go dig through old letters in a library in the first place?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11799143

Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#92

Post by justin66 » Mon, May 30, 2016, 1:30 PM UTC

alankay wrote: post #83

justin66 wrote: post #9

"I don't know how many of you have ever met Dijkstra, but you probably know that arrogance in computer science is measured in nano-Dijkstras." - Alan Kay

This quote keeps on showing up out of context. Edsger and I got along quite well. He loved to be the way he was and pushed it. His friend Bob Barton (the great genius of the B5000 design) was very similar in loving to push buttons and being very critical of the not-quite-a-field that we have. When the U of Utah faculty complained to Dave Evans about Barton, Evans said "We don't care if they're prima donnas as long as…

Thank you very much for the additional context.

"We don't care if they're prima donnas as long as they can sing!"

This is great.

Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#93

Post by pvg » Mon, May 30, 2016, 1:39 PM UTC

vog wrote: post #86

pvg wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It simply asks you not to go on (and continue to go on) about downvoting. The forum is better if everyone does as it asks. If you're really worried about being targeted by some evil bot, you can just email the site admins.

Thanks for the clarification. Now your first comment makes a lot more sense to me. It was not clear to me that you were asking for something. I thought you were trying to explain something.

I wasn't asking you for anything.

Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#94

Post by Ma8ee » Mon, May 30, 2016, 1:54 PM UTC

vanderZwan wrote: post #15

You know, I'm wondering: could part of Dijkstra's reputed arrogance be due to a cultural difference? I'm Dutch, and bluntly calling out flaws in each other's work is not considered all that rude over here; it's almost the opposite: not calling someone out on their flaws implies we either consider them a lost cause or not worth the hassle of educating. I almost got fired from a teaching position in Sweden because I to…

Many, far from all, Swedish students are way to pampered with. I was call Gestapo because I pointed out that it isn't acceptable behavior to be 40 minutes late to the lab session and not having read the instructions beforehand.

But it is definitely also a cultural thing. The contrast became very obvious when we had Russians in the seminars. The Swede says things like "I don't think I really understand how you mean, could you maybe elaborate that point a little bit further". The Russians: "You are wrong and it's very obvious to even a high school student what your mistake is. And besides, all this has already been done in the Soviet Union 40 years ago."

Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#95

Post by cafard » Mon, May 30, 2016, 2:01 PM UTC

vanderZwan wrote: post #15

You know, I'm wondering: could part of Dijkstra's reputed arrogance be due to a cultural difference? I'm Dutch, and bluntly calling out flaws in each other's work is not considered all that rude over here; it's almost the opposite: not calling someone out on their flaws implies we either consider them a lost cause or not worth the hassle of educating. I almost got fired from a teaching position in Sweden because I to…

I have heard of the cultural difference you refer to--my son worked in the Netherlands for some months. Yet I don't think that is all of it. Is it simple frankness to say that the use of Fortran damages the brain?

I do think that a good deal of the internet--the great unwashed both correspondents refer to--remember Dijkstra the insult comic better than Dijkstra the pioneer of computing. It doesn't improve discourse on the internet, I guess, or worsen it much either. I don't think it just to Dijkstra's reputation, though that is no responsibility of mine.

In his biography of Alexander the Great, Peter Green quotes the Athenian Demades's reproach to Philip:"King Philip," he said, "Fortune has cast you as Agamemnon; but you seem determined to act the part of Thersites."

Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#96

Post by oldmanjay » Mon, May 30, 2016, 2:30 PM UTC

Jtsummers wrote: post #64

Retra wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I would agree with that in principle, I think the word "violence" is being stretched a bit. Being unforgiving, stubborn, demanding, hard-hearted, or anything adherence to logic might be claimed to imbue are not acts of violence, even if they are emotionally hurtful to others.

Emotional harm is still violence. it is not a strictly physical phenomenon.

Was there a meeting where someone took the explicit decision to have followers repeat this lie until other people believed it, or do people like you take it upon yourselves to repeat this lie out of the basic evil in your heart?

Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#97

Post by kazinator » Mon, May 30, 2016, 2:42 PM UTC

Dikjstra had very good command of English for a Dutchman; far better than the average American. It seems he could easily have taught first year English. Look at the way he nicely incorporates quotes and the diction and sentence variety.

From this we can tell where he placed his efforts; if you want to troll computer science on an international level, you better beef up your English!

He would have made a great asset to any software team, as a documenter; I wouldn't have had him write much code, though.

Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#98

Post by kazinator » Mon, May 30, 2016, 3:10 PM UTC

internaut wrote: post #24

vanderZwan wrote: post #15

You know, I'm wondering: could part of Dijkstra's reputed arrogance be due to a cultural difference? I'm Dutch, and bluntly calling out flaws in each other's work is not considered all that rude over here; it's almost the opposite: not calling someone out on their flaws implies we either consider them a lost cause or not worth the hassle of educating. I almost got fired from a teaching position in Sweden because I to…

I've always liked the Dutch for this reason. If it isn't possible to work with somebody while disagreeing with them, then you're the problem. If you spend long enough talking to anybody you'll eventually come across disagreements. Many people take disagreements too personally. I was just yesterday talking to a paramedic. I mentioned to him the article I saw on HN about medical error being the 3rd highest cause of dea…

The dude is a paramedic. His job is to drive like a madman through red lights to emergency situations to frantically try to save someone, not to weigh the merits of research.

Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#99

Post by morty16 » Mon, May 30, 2016, 3:11 PM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #97

Dikjstra had very good command of English for a Dutchman; far better than the average American. It seems he could easily have taught first year English. Look at the way he nicely incorporates quotes and the diction and sentence variety. From this we can tell where he placed his efforts; if you want to troll computer science on an international level, you better beef up your English! He would have made a great asset t…

My understanding is that English is a natural second language for the Dutch and is taught extensively in schools (i.e. learned by everyone). Also, they are close enough to the U.K. to receive broadcast television, etc. so they also have that level of immersion.

Every Dutch person I've met has had a terrific command of the language, much better than average native speakers. I suspect that at least some of this is due to the fact that as second-language students they actually take time to learn the rules of grammar, etc. Most native speakers pick it up "on the street", so the Dutch (that I've met) tend to sound more formal and educated, especially when there's no discernible accent.

Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#100

Post by mcguire » Mon, May 30, 2016, 3:45 PM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #97

Dikjstra had very good command of English for a Dutchman; far better than the average American. It seems he could easily have taught first year English. Look at the way he nicely incorporates quotes and the diction and sentence variety. From this we can tell where he placed his efforts; if you want to troll computer science on an international level, you better beef up your English! He would have made a great asset t…

"Dikjstra had very good command of English for a Dutchman; far better than the average American."

Once upon a time, I read a thriller of the Cussler style where a Russian translator for the CIA or something goes to a conference and gets to exchange knowing glances with two colleagues over some mistake that only they recognized. Then I realized that there would have likely been more than a few native Russian speakers in the room.

You realize your statement is ridiculous, right?