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It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

nytimes.com

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Re: It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

#91

Post by gozur88 »

michaelbuddy wrote: post #88
gozur88 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yet, not having a degree is a detriment to me somehow still. Why? I can't think of a single good reason why so many employers would think that way. Since employers can't give IQ tests any more, they have come to rely on your college alma mater as a proxy for an IQ test. If you don't go to college, they don't know how you fit in with other candidates. Yes, college has become a $100k+ IQ test.

Employers will learn soon enough that the best and brightest in IT think actually think critically and know that university education is a negative, and probably will be for at least the next 5 years to a decade. Tech schools and accomplishments are where it's at.

I've been thinking employers would stop doing this for twenty years, but I haven't seen any movement in that direction.

Re: It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

#92

Post by Retric »

Alupis wrote: post #84
Retric wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the Army has long held minimum standards for mental capabilities. This is backed up by a lot of research. I am also a son of a teacher, but that's very different than an actual teacher. I can't picture using that to try and argue from authority. Especially when the lowest end of the scale is segregated from everyone else. Though, I guess wallowing in your ignorance is par for the course.

> I guess wallowing in your ignorance is par for the course I don't know why you choose to be so hostile? It's a bit condescending, and your position is not any more correct than I. > Even the Army has long held minimum standards for mental capabilities. This is backed up by a lot of research And the same was said about women serving in combat roles... until recently. I also happen to come from a military family, and…

Someone who makes into the Army is a high achiever.

A friend's child is sufficiently handicapped that at 20 he is incapable of speech more complex than grunting. He is still capable of relativly simple tasks. But to asume there is a binary choice where every person is either totally disabled or capable of becoming a fortune 500 CEO if they just worked harder is both idiotic and common.

There are many people with hopes and dreams who are worthy of respect, but simply can't function at a high level. Increasingly we simply throw them to the wolves as even if they can hold down a simple job that's not enough for rent, which starts a cycle of homelessness and often prison.

A living wage is about human decency even for those who have trouble with tasks more complex than mopping a floor.

Re: It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

#93

Post by Alupis »

Retric wrote: post #92
Alupis wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess wallowing in your ignorance is par for the course I don't know why you choose to be so hostile? It's a bit condescending, and your position is not any more correct than I. > Even the Army has long held minimum standards for mental capabilities. This is backed up by a lot of research And the same was said about women serving in combat roles... until recently. I also happen to come from a military family, and…

Someone who makes into the Army is a high achiever. A friend's child is sufficiently handicapped that at 20 he is incapable of speech more complex than grunting. He is still capable of relativly simple tasks. But to asume there is a binary choice where every person is either totally disabled or capable of becoming a fortune 500 CEO if they just worked harder is both idiotic and common. There are many people with hope…

> Someone who makes into the Army is a high achiever

This is a laughably absurd statement. Majority of enlistees are there exactly because they are not high achievers... A major benefit of the military is the opportunities it provides. They hammer into you responsibility, education, and highly skilled training. Even the lowest performers learn very complex tasks, making the military a fantastic example of what I'm advocating. Perhaps we need programs like this for the general public.

> A friend's child is sufficiently handicapped that at 20 he is incapable of speech more complex than grunting

I feel for your friend, as this is truly an awful thing to have to deal with. However, this is a false dichotomous claim. This scenario does not apply to any majority of folks in this country (or the world), and you're transforming this into a black and white scenario. In addition, certain types of ailments will permanently necessitate assisted living, even in adulthood, which makes your anecdote even less relevant to this discussion.

> is a binary choice where every person is either totally disabled or capable of becoming a fortune 500 CEO if they just worked harder is both idiotic and common

Of course it's not a binary choice. I never asserted as such. What I have asserted is, the future of the economy will depend on highly skilled and/or highly educated workers. The idea of the "working class" must shift - otherwise there's no purpose for them... and an economy cannot function with 50-80% of it's workforce only consuming via funds not earned nor supported (via taxes, because taxing a BI is sort of a ridiculous idea) by them.

> A living wage is about human decency

No it's not. It's about making folks as yourself feel good temporarily. A living wage is never enough. Why not make minimum wage $30 per hour today? It surely would postpone other necessary measures for longer! Inevitably though, we'll have to re-address this issue in a few years time, as we have been doing for 78 years. We have got to figure out a better solution, because the one we have right now is simply not cutting it. Even you agree to this, surely.

So no, I won't accept your defeatist attitude. Give up on the poor and stupid because they'll never amount to anything. Don't bother increasing education and training, because they'll never be capable of anything more than mopping floors. Just give them money and don't think about their problems for a couple of years.

What absurdity.

With this said, we really should end this. You will never agree with me, and I the same with you.

Re: It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

#94

Post by ArkyBeagle »

michaelbuddy wrote: post #88
gozur88 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yet, not having a degree is a detriment to me somehow still. Why? I can't think of a single good reason why so many employers would think that way. Since employers can't give IQ tests any more, they have come to rely on your college alma mater as a proxy for an IQ test. If you don't go to college, they don't know how you fit in with other candidates. Yes, college has become a $100k+ IQ test.

Employers will learn soon enough that the best and brightest in IT think actually think critically and know that university education is a negative, and probably will be for at least the next 5 years to a decade. Tech schools and accomplishments are where it's at.

The employers I worked for that did know that are no longer in business. No accusation of correlation here, just that this once was not at all uncommon.

Re: It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

#96

Post by dvtv75 »

imtringued wrote: post #90

I'm wondering if the purpose of most non STEM degrees is to reduce the supply of labor for the duration of these four years. At an estimated 50 years of work that's a decrease by 8% slightly increasing competition and wages.

Since an increase in labor supply would reduce likely reduce the cost of wages due to oversupply, I can't imagine that would be the reason. Could be wrong, though.

Re: It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

#97

Post by venomsnake »

bpchaps wrote: post #31

In interviews, the second most common question I get asked is, "Why don't you have a degree?" followed by "Are you planning on going back?". More than often, the questions have a strong No True Scotsman feeling to them. My experience is solid and my personal projects are fun and reflect passion. Yet, not having a degree is a detriment to me somehow still. Why? I can't think of a single good reason why so many employe…

> "Why don't you have a degree?"

My usual, also true response is - "By the time I went to the university, already knew more than the people teaching there, so it was pointless"

We do need exam only degrees without the waste of 4 years for something that could be picked up in a month or two.

Re: It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

#98

Post by Retric »

Alupis wrote: post #93
Retric wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone who makes into the Army is a high achiever. A friend's child is sufficiently handicapped that at 20 he is incapable of speech more complex than grunting. He is still capable of relativly simple tasks. But to asume there is a binary choice where every person is either totally disabled or capable of becoming a fortune 500 CEO if they just worked harder is both idiotic and common. There are many people with hope…

> Someone who makes into the Army is a high achiever This is a laughably absurd statement. Majority of enlistees are there exactly because they are not high achievers... A major benefit of the military is the opportunities it provides. They hammer into you responsibility, education, and highly skilled training. Even the lowest performers learn very complex tasks, making the military a fantastic example of what I'm ad…

> Of course it's not a binary choice. ...the future...

This is clearly cold comfort to people who went homeless despite multiple full time jobs.

Minimum wage can be tagged to inflation just like Social Security and like all laws it can be changed in a few weeks. Your projecting a future that does not currently exist and many never exist and ignoring millions that are at the border right now.

Re: It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

#99

Post by adrianN »

michaelbuddy wrote: post #88
gozur88 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yet, not having a degree is a detriment to me somehow still. Why? I can't think of a single good reason why so many employers would think that way. Since employers can't give IQ tests any more, they have come to rely on your college alma mater as a proxy for an IQ test. If you don't go to college, they don't know how you fit in with other candidates. Yes, college has become a $100k+ IQ test.

Employers will learn soon enough that the best and brightest in IT think actually think critically and know that university education is a negative, and probably will be for at least the next 5 years to a decade. Tech schools and accomplishments are where it's at.

I disagree. What makes you think that the best and brightest don't go to college and do a PhD? Not everybody wants to make as much money as possible as soon as possible.

Re: It’s a Tough Job Market for the Young Without College Degrees

#100

Post by Alupis »

Retric wrote: post #98
Alupis wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone who makes into the Army is a high achiever This is a laughably absurd statement. Majority of enlistees are there exactly because they are not high achievers... A major benefit of the military is the opportunities it provides. They hammer into you responsibility, education, and highly skilled training. Even the lowest performers learn very complex tasks, making the military a fantastic example of what I'm ad…

> Of course it's not a binary choice. ...the future... This is clearly cold comfort to people who went homeless despite multiple full time jobs. Minimum wage can be tagged to inflation just like Social Security and like all laws it can be changed in a few weeks. Your projecting a future that does not currently exist and many never exist and ignoring millions that are at the border right now.

So what do you propose? Small business should front this enormous burden because society won't install a better solution?

Small business make up 99.7% of all companies in the US, and account for 65% of all jobs created since 1995. [1][2][3][4]. But that's not to say big businesses aren't impacted by this.

The more expensive you make human labor, the more of these unskilled and low education jobs disappear (McDonald's automated kiosks, for example). Small businesses just can't afford to employ as many people, and big businesses turn to increased automation... which is the exact problem you're describing.

This seems to pivot your point to suggesting a BI. If so, then you'll need to adopt the plan I've been advocating this entire time - increased (and/or mandatory) higher education and/or highly skilled training. Otherwise BI falls apart as it won't be a self sustaining economy. Federal revenue is paid for by the workforce in majority (payroll tax + income tax equal about 80% of federal revenue[5]). If the workforce shrinks (and it doesn't make logical sense to tax a BI), then we have a problem.

The plan I've advocated can be adopted and be successful with or without a BI economy. I don't see a better plan coming from you, however.

[1] http://www.inc.com/jared-hecht/are-small-businesses-really-t...

[2] http://sbecouncil.org/about-us/facts-and-data/

[3] https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/FAQ_Sept_2012.pdf

[4] http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonnazar/2013/09/09/16-surpris...

[5] http://www.cbpp.org/research/policy-basics-where-do-federal-...

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