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Panama Papers source issues statement

panamapapers.icij.org

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Re: Panama Papers source issues statement

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, so no evidence that Snowden's leaks hurt American ops. Sure, we can infer that the terrorists (or whoever) may have tweaked their opsec in response, but it's not like that will drive them to do anything that wasn't simply an opsec best practice all along. If the NSA was simply relying on people being sloppy (not using encryption, etc.) and that changed, well... that was inevitable over time anyway. As for back…

"Right, so no evidence that Snowden's leaks hurt American ops." The ops are classified so it's a bogus point anyway. You're requiring them to commit a felony to prove specific damage. Further, you've already dismissed anything coming from spy agencies as a lie. You've set that line of questioning up to be a fail no matter what they show you. The only exception I'm seeing is a 3rd party or foreign nation detects their…

Just answer quick question: do you believe that the Snowden leaks improved people's ability to resist NSA surveillance and increase privacy through technological responses?

Their ability? No, I don't. Did it promote people's inclination to resist the NSA. Certainly. But I would argue that those things would have happened over time anyway. So if Snowden caused any harm, I believe it was likely to be minor and of little consequence.

He wasn't justified because he didn't have to leak it. That simple. He could've just leaked the ones that targeted Americans or showed gross abuse rather than a lot of what we already, as Americans, allowed NSA to do.

Fair enough... But that'a assuming he had the time and means to carefully sift through it all and make those determinations. I believe his argument is that he turned the data over to credible journalists (as opposed to simply dropping it all over pastebins or uploading a torrent) exactly some somebody could go through it and determine which parts to actually publish, and which parts to withhold, so as to avoid serious harm to legitimate intelligence operations.

Re: Panama Papers source issues statement

#92
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"He's not a traitor because a subset of the things he leaked were actually legal." Strawman this time. You m are fun. He's a traitor because he leaked national secrets critical to ongoing operations that were legal and mandated. Further, Americans approved of NSA spying on foreign countries as they know it works both ways. Hope you get it now. Violating classified info laws in a way that damages American ops but does…

Legality aside, those ongoing operation are Un-American and many reasonable people, perhaps a majority, in this democracy of ours never had chance to vote or have any say in their creation. Then taking into account legality, many consider them a violation of the 4th amendment. And again such a policy was instituted without ever a public discussion in relation to the constitution. Someone revealing such policy to the…

" those ongoing operation are Un-American"

Says who? A few of you keep saying that but it's un-American itself to let a tiny, anonymous minority determine what's right for whole country. What exactly is American? I think it takes a consensus or compromise from voting public to determine that.

"many reasonable people, perhaps a majority, in this democracy of ours never had chance to vote or have any say in their creation."

The intelligence services were created by elected representatives in response to a second, World War that killed tens of millions of people. They actually helped end the war sooner. Their existence and general goal, although not all specifics, were repeatedly accepted by Americans. Instrumental in helping us with Cold War. Yes, most of the voting public is fine with the existence of spy agencies going back decades. It was abusive activities that harmed innocent people here and abroad that we fought against. Not surveillance or actions that protected our interests or citizens, though. Almost no protest.

"Then taking into account legality, many consider them a violation of the 4th amendment. "

That's why they were supposed to spy on foreign countries. They don't have 4th Amendment rights any more than they have responsibilities to America under our Constitution. And, yes, there were public discussions about the existence of military and intelligence activities going back decades. Americans knew they existed and were fine with the concept.

Wait, maybe I made a mistake here assuming you're American given your comments. You may be a foreigner who never read a U.S. history book. My apologies if you were referring to your own country where people never had a choice. Americans, on other hand, chose spying repeatedly with a big chunk choosing domestic spying in restricted form. The latter were foolish but the former are matter of public record.

Re: Panama Papers source issues statement

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Right, so no evidence that Snowden's leaks hurt American ops." The ops are classified so it's a bogus point anyway. You're requiring them to commit a felony to prove specific damage. Further, you've already dismissed anything coming from spy agencies as a lie. You've set that line of questioning up to be a fail no matter what they show you. The only exception I'm seeing is a 3rd party or foreign nation detects their…

Just answer quick question: do you believe that the Snowden leaks improved people's ability to resist NSA surveillance and increase privacy through technological responses? Their ability ? No, I don't. Did it promote people's inclination to resist the NSA. Certainly. But I would argue that those things would have happened over time anyway. So if Snowden caused any harm, I believe it was likely to be minor and of litt…

"But I would argue that those things would have happened over time anyway. "

Why? I spent around a decade trying to convince American and foreign parties that their systems were being hit from hardware up to software. I tried to tell them about TEMPEST issues. I pointed out that the existing software was so insecure it could be hit without visible evidence at all. Past commercial & ITSEC best practices, nobody believed it or was willing to do anything. They were also gradually moving more private data into the hands of centralized parties in spying jurisdictions using HW/SW from spying jurisdictions.

So, why do you think it was inevitable when companies and consumers have resisted real security more every year for decades with only band-aids accepted? All evidence is to the contrary. That Snowden revealed how easily people are hit with subsequent awareness is one of the positives I count.

" But that'a assuming he had the time and means to carefully sift through it all"

He said he read every document. A spot judgement would've told him which were foreign or domestic. He worked with the stuff daily. In interviews, he recites it by heart without thought. He knew, he spent the time, and said so repeatedly. So, why do two of you ask why I expect him to do what he already said he did unless you just never saw his interviews?

It's as simple as having three folders: Good Leak; Who Knows; Definitely Don't Leak. Leak first for sure with careful thought on second and nothing in third. No evidence he even tried something like that. Why is that? Let's get to that.

" I believe his argument is that he turned the data over to credible journalists"

That was one. The other was that he wasn't comfortable holding onto it in order to do that. He didn't want to take the risk to himself. As in, he was a coward and risked burning all his fellow operators in that data dump to foreign intelligence agents just to save his own ass. Many options available to him. He did the safest one for him that did all the resulting damage. That simple.

Nothing heroic. Nothing abstract. He had a bag of stuff that could save America, stuff that could damage innocent Americans, and gave it all away to save his own ass. By his own admission. When we know he could've at least tried damage reduction as media did in Wikileaks time. Not even the smallest effort before he dumped it and went on the run. He surely had the time to make that effort, too, given he already read it. No question.

Re: Panama Papers source issues statement

#95

But most of all, the legal profession has failed. Democratic governance depends upon responsible individuals throughout the entire system who understand and uphold the law, not who understand and exploit it. Sigh. One of the most puzzling questions I have to deal with in my mind. Why is there so little moral left in this world?

I think it is a bullshit indictment. I'm a corporate lawyer who does a lot of cross borders work. I'm ethical - the lawyers I work with are ethical. The vast majority of lawyers are ethical. If anything, the Panama Papers should be an object lesson that one firm or group of lawyers can be responsible for a huge proportion of activity in a given sector. Do you think, for a minute, that other firms have this astounding…

This sounds like the response of another industry, Wall Street, when it is called out for its corruption and incompetence. Anger and hyperbole aren't convincing, and in this case not intimindating (the real point of anger). They also undermine everything else you say.

Re: Panama Papers source issues statement

#96
post #12

But most of all, the legal profession has failed. Democratic governance depends upon responsible individuals throughout the entire system who understand and uphold the law, not who understand and exploit it. Sigh. One of the most puzzling questions I have to deal with in my mind. Why is there so little moral left in this world?

Why should there have been any morals in the first place? Does nature by default have morals?

>>[mgraupner] Why is there so little moral left in this world?

>>[psadri] Does nature by default have morals?

Morality is the differentiation of actions proper and improper; generally defined 'morals' is that language that contains imperatives: what humans should do (as sentences, called 'norms').

When we wonder why there seems to be a lack of behavior that follows these morals in the world, we approach the concept of morality from a descriptive sense (we observe that human behavior has changed). Increased insight in this pursuit is found when we examine how humans themselves have approached morality from a normative sense (what is actually proper and improper). When humans have considered morality they have come to understand that the morals humans proclaim—again, language that contains imperatives—either correspond to real, objective moral facts ("Moral Realism") or are merely invented delusions expressing human emotions ("Moral Nonrealism").

Prior to the Enlightenment, there was a category of accepted knowledge outside of empirically observed nature (e.g., the non-natural, supramundane, supernatural, etc). The Enlightenment itself was a shift in human thinking that rejected this category as invalid, switching our criteria of acceptable knowledge to the material, to the empirically observed.

The shift in thinking did not happen all at once. Certain beliefs remained, held over from earlier times—somewhat as dependencies—until they could be examined and dismantled individually if they lacked empiric evidence. Western society's assumption that objective Moral Facts existed in a material universe remained for some time until examined by David Hume in 1738 in his A Treatise of Human Nature. Here Hume observed the difficult reality of the relationship between facts (that which is) and values (that which we claim ought to be), concluding that we cannot assert prescriptive or normative values based on descriptive facts.

Hume's Is-Ought observation upset the world, and has resulted in our modern condition. If empirical observation is categorically never able to locate oughts, a world that accepts Empiricism alone is one forced from Moral Realism to Moral Nonrealism: morals no longer correspond to Objective Facts, but can only be understood as invented whims and emotions, which—apart from society's ability to enforce or inflict punishment for as a conditional consequence (what Kant termed 'hypothetical morality')—can be ignored without consequence.

The transition from a society whose intellectuals and leaders held Moral Realism (viz, Christendom) to one where artists, philosophers, and intelligentsia hold Moral Nonrealism (the Modern West) has been a long, painful process since 1738. The Marquis de Sade astutely summed up the painful condition of man following Hume's revolution in thought saying "If there is no God, then everything that Is, is Right" and the majority of Western thought since then has either been in reaction against this belief (i.e., revivals of Evangelical Christianity) or experiments exploring this accepted world (e.g., Surrealism, Dada, Modern Art, Existentialism, Egoism/Individualism/Anarchism, Deconstructionism, Postmodernism, etc).

From the introduction to Dostoevsky's The Grand Inquisitor by the American Heidegger-scholar and philosopher Charles Guignon:

Briefly put, the issue is this. Either God exists or He does not exist...if God does not exist, then the picture of the universe formulated by mechanistic materialism must be true. But, in this case, given the point of view of modern science (what Ivan calls "Euclidean reason"), the universe consists of nothing but meaningless material objects in causal interaction, effects follows cause according to the laws of physics, people are determined to do what they do, no one is guilty of anything, and so there are no such things as right or wrong, good or bad. Or, more precisely, the ideals of justice, goodness, benevolence, dignity, and so on turn out to be purely human inventions, the results of projecting our needs and wishes onto brute, meaningless matter, and so they are illusions lacking any basis in the order of things.

...Dostoevsky regarded [this] as the inevitable outcome of the perfectionist stance of detachment and moral superiority: the idea that, for higher people, "everything is lawful." [If] "God is dead"...then why not step outside the law and do whatever you want? From this standpoint, morality looks like a suckers game. The paradox [of] Westernized ideals, then, is that its austere discipline of detachment and self-transformation tends to undermine its own moral underpinnings. In the end this form of idealism spawns a self-serving moral nihilism.

Re: Panama Papers source issues statement

#97
post #80
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I agree that castigating all attorneys is going to far, but this comes dangerously close to two fallacies; that because it's legal, it's moral (namely that you can divorce your moral responsibility because you're acting in the letter of the law) and that you were just "following orders." If the consequence of failing to take advantage of loopholes is lawsuits for malpractice then that indicates a problem in itself.…

> I just watched the People v. OJ Simpson. Here's a man who was clearly guilty of a heinous crime. Yet, his lawyers' job was not to pass moral judgment on him, but to represent him. It was their ethical obligation to try and exonerate their client by exploiting every shred of doubt so long as they did nothing to undermine the integrity of the process (lying to the Court, etc). As a people, we've made the judgment on…

Exactly. I think it was a good tradeoff even if the system's workings could use some improvements. Bad things happen and people escape punishment for them all the time. We built the law to protect innocent from this in the first place. Better that we lean toward reducing rather than increasing wrongful convictions. Especially for anything with a death penalty.

Re: Panama Papers source issues statement

#98
post #80
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I agree that castigating all attorneys is going to far, but this comes dangerously close to two fallacies; that because it's legal, it's moral (namely that you can divorce your moral responsibility because you're acting in the letter of the law) and that you were just "following orders." If the consequence of failing to take advantage of loopholes is lawsuits for malpractice then that indicates a problem in itself.…

> I just watched the People v. OJ Simpson. Here's a man who was clearly guilty of a heinous crime. Yet, his lawyers' job was not to pass moral judgment on him, but to represent him. It was their ethical obligation to try and exonerate their client by exploiting every shred of doubt so long as they did nothing to undermine the integrity of the process (lying to the Court, etc). As a people, we've made the judgment on…

> As a people, we've made the judgment on the tradeoff that we should like the criminal system to behave this way because it's better off to have a thousand guilty men go free than jail an innocent person.

Blackstone's original quote was 10 guilty men, not 1000, but I digress. The whole point of the legal profession is to serve as a buffer between public opinion and individuals. If we had taken a nationwide vote on OJ, the results wouldn't be "better to have a thousand guilty men go free" but rather "life in prison."

The same rationale applies in the business law context. Cupertino's mayor wants Apple to pay the city $100m: http://fortune.com/2016/05/05/cupertino-mayor-apple-abuses. Not because it's the law, but because public sentiment opposes the growth created by Apple's presence. Should Apple's lawyers advise them to pay more money because it's the "moral" thing to do? And how do we decide which companies to target for ad hoc moral judgment?

And how exactly do we hold lawyers accountable for "moral" rather than "legal" conduct? Do we punish the lawyer who files the complaint to foreclose on a building full of retirees and disabled veterans? What if the new construction on the site will house 10x as many people and create dozens of jobs? Who decides?

Re: Panama Papers source issues statement

#99
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is correct. There is Government, but then there are the secret powers-that-be that pull governments' strings. And they can't work effectively to further their own ends while in the light of public scrutiny.

I don't like this attitude. In fact, some whistleblower protection laws already exist (whistleblower protection act). I'm sure there are forces that act on politicians other than loyalty to their constituents, but there's no reason in the American democracy we couldn't (theoretically) get to a point where we elect representatives who understand the importance of whistleblower protection and care more about their cons…

While I respect and agree with your sentiment, ignoring reality doesn't make it go away, unfortunately.

When you have parts of the government that are essentially without oversight and that illegally spy on their oversight committees [1]... what do you expect?

[1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/cia-admits-spyi...

Re: Panama Papers source issues statement

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that's only true depending on where you stand. (and I mean that quite literally, as in Where are you from, what country do you live in?) If you're the state of Germany, they probably don't think it's legal for others to spy on them. That's certainly true in the US. And of course you'll argue that it was a US citizen reporting on US gov't affairs. But, isn't a whistleblower someone who believe they are s…

Now, this was the first, thoughtful reply I got in this. I'm addressing it last as it deserves a bit more thought. Let's look at the points. " If you're the state of Germany, they probably don't think it's legal for others to spy on them." It's true. An NSA proponent we shred on Schneier's blog made one good point: each country makes spying on everyone else legal for them but makes it illegal for anyone to spy on the…

In response to your last paragraph, what if an organization is more good than bad and the bad they do is really bad? Does it really matter if there are also good people working there? Even if you can argue that we need the good stuff the good people are doing, that doesn't make the organization redeemable. The worst part is that reasonable-sounding people will make statements like yours, which seems to provide cover for all the bad stuff... and business continues as usual.
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