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Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

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Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#91

Post by vlehto »

makomk wrote: post #49
thaumasiotes wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason why nobody has sortition, is because deep down democracy is about being as agreeable as possible to the median citizen. If you have vague feeling that you decided who is prime minister, you are more motivated to pay taxes and fight wars. I doubt this has any explanatory power as to why sortition isn't used much today. Among other things, the median citizen doesn't care even a little bit about who is prim…

I think it has a lot of explanatory power. From what I've seen the main reason people don't care about who's in charge is because they think all the candidates are basically the same and none actually represent them.

...in the framework of your country.

If you are U.S. citizen, you probably would prefer Obama over Enrique Peña Nieto. Personally as a Finn I like Sipilä and Niinistö over Putin. In a way any Finnish party head would suit me better than Putin. It matters little which of them, but it matters a lot that it's one of them.

In medieval Europe, vassal dukes would bargain who king they would pay taxes to. And you had situations where Britain was ruled by dude who spoke French and lived in Normandy.

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#92

Post by vidarh »

chrischen wrote: post #42
Manishearth wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it turns out it's natural consequence of Democracy. There's no law against other parties It's a natural consequence of the specifics of how the US does elections. The US isn't the only country with democracy and plenty of others have more than 2 significant parties.

See reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11547983 Most countries where there are more than two parties are smaller. Just like in the US at lower level elections independents and other party members might win.

It has nothing to do with size, and everything to do with an electoral system without proportionality.

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#93

Post by Coincoin »

mrob wrote: post #2

The solution is simple. Continue calling the boat Boaty McBoatface. Ignore all references to the government's preferred name. They can choose what's painted on the side, but the name depends only on what people call it. If enough people call it Boaty McBoatface its name really is Boaty McBoatface. If your job depends on calling it the government's preferred name then subtly alter the timing of your speech to make it…

Even better, call the boat Sir Boaty McBoatface. Everyone takes a Sir seriously.

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#94

Post by ZenoArrow »

notahacker wrote: post #67
ZenoArrow wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a system that, in my opinion, is even better (fairer, less prone to corruption) than sortition, and that's liquid democracy (a.k.a. delegative democracy): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delegative_democracy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg0_Vhldz-8 The idea being, you can let people vote on your behalf, or you can vote directly, and you have the freedom to choose between these on an issue by issue basis.

I rather like the concept, but I can see it having some interested and unanticipated side effects if you allow people to select their delegate by category rather than individual bill by individual bill. The person that decides whether people's delegates for voting on (e.g.) an act related to surveillance default to being the delegate they selected for "civil liberties" or the delegate they selected for "national secu…

> "I rather like the concept, but I can see it having some interested and unanticipated side effects if you allow people to select their delegate by category rather than individual bill by individual bill."

The point is that you can delegate for individual bills, as well as taking back your power to vote on individual bills. You can delegate by category, but you don't need to if it doesn't serve you. The idea is that the people you delegate to have to stick up for your best interests, as their power can be taken away at any point if they do not.

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#95

Post by OvidNaso »

toyg wrote: post #84
tfm wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a difficult line to toe. Obviously if their primary objective is to raise awareness of the (continuing) existence of the boat, BMcBF is a winner, and there are numerous cash-in opportunities such as those you suggest. If done right it might not even look cynical! If on the other hand giving it a silly name "dilutes their brand" (to use an HN favourite) then they're going to do the stuffy thing. Not entirely sur…

> Really seems that SCIENCE does a lot better in the public eye at the moment when it goes populist rather than cloistered Except vaccines. And chemtrails. And moon landings. And and and... I'm a populist by nature but let's not get carried away here.

All of those viewpoints you alude to are extremely fringe movements and are in no way populist.

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#96

Post by mikecb »

Coincoin wrote: post #93
mrob wrote: post #2

The solution is simple. Continue calling the boat Boaty McBoatface. Ignore all references to the government's preferred name. They can choose what's painted on the side, but the name depends only on what people call it. If enough people call it Boaty McBoatface its name really is Boaty McBoatface. If your job depends on calling it the government's preferred name then subtly alter the timing of your speech to make it…

Even better, call the boat Sir Boaty McBoatface. Everyone takes a Sir seriously.

Dame

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#97

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

seanp2k2 wrote: post #16
JorgeGT wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only the PR but all the merch for kids: stuffed toys, models, t-shirts, caps... follow Boaty through his artic adventures!

Yes exactly. If anything, it's a great way to get kids interested initially and tell the story about what it's doing, why, how they do something like that some day, etc.

Nothing good can ever come of getting kids interested in science.

Next thing you know they'll want to be doing science themselves. Where will it end?

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#98

Post by aninhumer »

hartpuff wrote: post #87
aninhumer wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also said: > You could have Boaty McBoatface sale up to the ice caps to look at why they are melting. An example of how it could be used to deliver important messages. And merchandise can be part of the message anyway. (I should however note that I just edited my comment to include the word "simply".)

AFAIK there's nothing to stop someone creating a character called Boaty McBoatface that teaches 4 year olds why the ice caps are melting, without having its internet joke name attached to a real life $300 million scientific research vessel.

Well yeah, but that's not the same.

And exactly what problem does attaching the name to a real boat cause? I think the objection to the name is far more childish than the name itself. "Oh no no no, we can't call it that. This is a serious boat, for serious grown ups."

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#99

Post by vidarh »

takno wrote: post #71
slavik81 wrote: post #20

What the poll results don't tell you is how much people care about the choice they picked. In a representative democracy, it's not just about what the majority wants, but how much people really care. If a majority prefers pepperoni pizza but will eat basically anything, don't be surprised when the representative orders vegetarian. The vegetarians care far more about the exact type of pizza that's served and are more…

It may be cultural thing, but in the UK tech scene at least even if people are flexible about pepperoni it's mostly because there is a large and delicious range of meat-based pizzas to split the vote. The representative who orders just vegetarian pizza clearly isn't thinking in terms of re-election.

The rep who orders just vegetarian pizza will have a bloody revolution on their hands. I have pretty much three criteria for pizza selection: No anchovies, no pine apple, and at least one form of meat.

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#100

Post by vidarh »

mrob wrote: post #2

The solution is simple. Continue calling the boat Boaty McBoatface. Ignore all references to the government's preferred name. They can choose what's painted on the side, but the name depends only on what people call it. If enough people call it Boaty McBoatface its name really is Boaty McBoatface. If your job depends on calling it the government's preferred name then subtly alter the timing of your speech to make it…

Also, consistently refer to the person overriding the competition result as Sour McSourpuss.
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