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Could 'actual innocence' save the broken US justice system?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Could 'actual innocence' save the broken US justice system?

#91

Post by coldtea »

mason240 wrote: post #76
coldtea wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But why is he stealing cars? If he's going to go around doing things like that we don't want him in our society do we? Well, I want him alright. There are tons of examples of people who have done such things, including repeatedly, that include some great artists, writers, inventors, businessmen, etc. And of course tons of people who went to to change their ways, become great parents, etc. We could lose some people…

We have plenty of people in society that we don't need to keep car thieves on the street stealing cars.

I'd rather get rid of the bankers and advertisers (for starters) and keep the car thieves.

Actually, I'd rather we get rid of the cars...

Re: Could 'actual innocence' save the broken US justice system?

#92

Post by AnthonyMouse »

cmrx64 wrote: post #9
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially considering that a polygraph has about the same accuracy as a Tarot card reading.

You and GP really need to read the article fully. Even without doing other research, you dismiss the concept based on a false premise that the article itself clarifies..

In other words it's the modern equivalent of the ancient practice of trial by fire.

Except that in this case the defendant should have a defense attorney who will tell them the truth, that the ordeal itself is a farce and the real test is whether agreeing to suffer it will convince the prosecutor.

Which destroys its value as a filter and converts it back into its true form, a waste of tax dollars on pseudoscience BS. (And a method for prosecutors to coerce innocent defendants into giving up their right to remain silent or communicate through their attorney.)

Re: Could 'actual innocence' save the broken US justice system?

#93

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

vidarh wrote: post #43
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> though they know these kinds of tests can be unreliable, being confronted with the chance to take one can filter out disingenuous defendants So basically does that mean that although they don't trust the polygraph, they trust the defendant's trust in the polygraph? That seems shaky and subject to change.

No, they are saying it filters out some portion of the defendants. The article also says they carry out a fresh review of the case, and: "The ASA shall confirm that no other probative forensic testing can be conducted and that no other witnesses can be identified and interviewed," the protocol reads. "At the end of this review, if both the ASA and supervising ASA(s) either no longer believe there exists a moral certa…

> No, they are saying it filters out some portion of the defendants.

Yes, they filter out the ones who

- believe in polygraphs and

- believe they would fail

Re: Could 'actual innocence' save the broken US justice system?

#94

Post by mason240 »

coldtea wrote: post #91
mason240 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have plenty of people in society that we don't need to keep car thieves on the street stealing cars.

I'd rather get rid of the bankers and advertisers (for starters) and keep the car thieves. Actually, I'd rather we get rid of the cars...

That you would prefer car thieves to cars really says it all.

Re: Could 'actual innocence' save the broken US justice system?

#95

Post by pjc50 »

talmand wrote: post #83
pjc50 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism and wildly exaggerated fear of crime caused people to effectively demand a justice system that worked like this. So long as it only ruins black lives and those of white people who are easy to dismiss as feckless, the rest of the voters are happy with it.

You're not going back far enough. I would say that throughout much of history there has been similar problems with all justice systems.

Policing in the modern sense only dates back to 1829. "Much of history" covers a huge sweep of possibilities.

Re: Could 'actual innocence' save the broken US justice system?

#96

Post by mirimir »

talmand wrote: post #84
thirdsun wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Particularly surprising since the US is such a lawsuit-happy country where it seems you can expect some form of compensation even for borderline ridiculous issues. Coffee too hot? Jackpot! Life severely ruined by being wrongfully convicted? Well, sorry about that.

I believe there is some sort of automatic compensation for being wrongfully convicted in many areas, depending on the court that did the conviction. Being wrongfully jailed before conviction is a different matter.

It's rather like part of your civic responsibilities as a citizen. Like jury duty.

Re: Could 'actual innocence' save the broken US justice system?

#97

Post by chris_wot »

Scarblac wrote: post #81
chris_wot wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a polygraph is a filter that just doesn't work, then it's a total waste of time as it won't work as a filter, or anything else for that matter.

The _threat_ of a polygraph test might filter out some guilty people who are afraid of it. They don't use the result of the test for anything, according to the article.

I think that ethically that's problematic. I consider that to be coercion based on pseudoscience. There are people out there who are afraid of it for a variety of reasons - I can think of a few off the top of my head:

They are concerned they might ask a question unrelated to the case that incriminates them

They are concerned that they ask a question that causes them personal problems, even if they are innocent (like past infidelity from 20 years ago, etc)

They are concerned that the polygraph might be wrong and incriminate them for something they haven't done

If they don't use the results of the test for anything, then it's a deceptive interrogation technique and one that should be stopped.

Re: Could 'actual innocence' save the broken US justice system?

#98

Post by coldtea »

mason240 wrote: post #94
coldtea wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather get rid of the bankers and advertisers (for starters) and keep the car thieves. Actually, I'd rather we get rid of the cars...

That you would prefer car thieves to cars really says it all.

Sure, but you forgot to mention which are these "all".

Besides, cars kill far more people than car thieves (actually, they are the leading cause of death in young people), pollute the air, have a big environmental impact for their construction (including electric cars), contribute to urban noise pollution, and influence city planning in creating monstrous (sub)urban sprawls. And that's before the billions spent on oil for car use, and the millions killed to ensure first world countries control it and get it for cheap.

Re: Could 'actual innocence' save the broken US justice system?

#99

Post by talmand »

pjc50 wrote: post #95
talmand wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not going back far enough. I would say that throughout much of history there has been similar problems with all justice systems.

Policing in the modern sense only dates back to 1829. "Much of history" covers a huge sweep of possibilities.

I'm not talking about policing, I'm speaking of justice systems which do go back quite a ways into history.
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