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Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

nytimes.com

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Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#91

Post by microtonal »

cm3 wrote: post #56
Udo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, I feel more attached to Germany, to be honest As a fellow German, it's encouraging to hear that immigrants sometimes still feel they can identify with Germany as their new country, despite all the obvious hurdles. My ex girlfriend's parents moved back to Turkey recently after spending pretty much their entire working lives in Germany, which got me thinking a lot. They said their primary reasons were that t…

That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. Both parties are to blame, but no matter what a Turk does, it will at least be another 50 years before they're accepted as Germans. Just look at the German media. When somebody with a migration background would get some award, they're quick to point out (s)he is from Germany, hiding the background. But when (s)he does something peo…

That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands.

But I fully agree with your observation. But I think there is hope. For instance, the mayor of the second-largest Dutch city (Rotterdam) is a Moroccan immigrant. Such people are role models for people with an immigrant background (you can make it in The Netherlands) and a Dutch background (in terms of acceptance).

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#92

Post by elcapitan »

taejo wrote: post #49
kuschku wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is quite a difference: The station isn’t paid for by taxes from the government, but the station has the right to collect its own taxes , ensuring it can act independently.

Moreover, this right is established by a treaty between the German states, rather than by a law of the federal government.

So there's basically a media bureaucracy that can decide how much money it wants to earn, without asking any customers. Awesome!

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#93

Post by Natanael_L »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #50
antientropic wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should count ourselves lucky Turkey didn't join the EU in 1995-2008. I'd rather have an authoritarian Turkey outside of the EU than inside. We have enough trouble with the likes of Orban and Kaczynski already. And I don't follow the arguments for Turkey joining. Yes, it may have enormous potential; but nobody would say Mexico should join the US just because it has potential.

>> "We should count ourselves lucky Turkey didn't join the EU in 1995-2008. I'd rather have an authoritarian Turkey outside of the EU than inside." On the other hand wouldn't they be subject to certain laws to prevent or reduce the authoritarianism if they were part of the EU?

Good luck enforcing it

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#94

Post by jerf »

Cenk wrote: post #45
sydneysider wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blaming this on 'racism' is a poor argument. Maybe it has something to do with the incompatible cultures and values.

"incompatible cultures and values" are almost exactly the words these racists have always used to keep Turkey out. Britain, Spain, Greece, Cyprus and Slovakia are all compatible, but Turkey is a step too far?

The easy post would be to point out that "racists once made that argument" is basically a slightly cloaked ad hominem attack trying to accuse your opponent of racism, without doing it clearly in a way that could be denied.

But the more interesting post is to point out that if you allow racists the power to destroy an entire line of argumentation for all purposes forever by using it, you are ceding to them enormous power to control the discourse, even accidentally, by completely determining the bounds of acceptable debate.

Racism is bad, but the way we treat it as radioactive waste nowadays has itself become a danger to society. It's merely bad. It is not the One True Sin, it is not the cause of all life's problems, it is not the One Temptation in life that if resisted means we can stop worrying about our moral status, it is not something that permanently twists everything it touches into an eternerally-unredeemable black goo, even ye unto a dozen generations. It's merely a bad thing that hurts people. Giving it the power to be those other things is an error too.

So, yes, it is perfectly valid to address the question of "incompatible cultures and values". Of course, it does require one to admit that cultures have values that can differ from one another, which is, admittedly, a door that once you walk through does suddenly make a lot of the prepackaged really "nice" answers in current discourse suddenly obviously too oversimplified to be useful for any purpose, but such is reality.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#95

Post by madaxe_again »

gkya wrote: post #78
gokhan wrote: post #35

These days, most forms of criticism of Erdogan is forbidden in Turkey. During the past 14 years, he and his party turned a barely standing democracy with imperfect rules into a semi-dictatorian state with no rules. Police force fully belongs to him and you can derive many similarities with Hitler's early 1930's. There are no mainstream press left daring to oppose him, no prosecutor can question him for his unconstitu…

Erdogan is not an idiot for trying to censor German press. He does know that that won't ever happen because he wanted. But most the voters of his party will be excited to see him shouting at the Germany, the US, etc. This is not that obvious to the opposition. I came to know some supporters only recently, and boy, they have arousals when the guy acts like this. I'm a Turkish citizen BTW. And see, criticism of Erdogan…

It's almost like an Ottoman revival, except less inclusive.

I wonder, will Erdogan bring back Janissaries? Or has he already through his full control of the security forces?

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#96

Post by Cenk »

jbmorgado wrote: post #77
Cenk wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"incompatible cultures and values" are almost exactly the words these racists have always used to keep Turkey out. Britain, Spain, Greece, Cyprus and Slovakia are all compatible, but Turkey is a step too far?

I, for one wouldn't be welcoming a country in EU that is now committing genocide against the Kurds for almost 3 generations. I also wouldn't be welcoming a country that refuses to acknowledge the full independence of another EU member state (Cyprus). If you want to play the racism/xenophobia card and pretend that these are not the big issues we have against Turkey in EU go ahead, but I can't tell you that you are not…

>I also wouldn't be welcoming a country that refuses to acknowledge the full independence of another EU member state (Cyprus).

Really? Because Cyprus would:

>Cyprus is in favor of Turkey's Accession to the EU with the hope it will facilitate a viable and just solution of the Cyprus Problem. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Cyprus#Tu...)

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#97

Post by gotchange »

justsaysmthng wrote: post #70
gokhan wrote: post #35

These days, most forms of criticism of Erdogan is forbidden in Turkey. During the past 14 years, he and his party turned a barely standing democracy with imperfect rules into a semi-dictatorian state with no rules. Police force fully belongs to him and you can derive many similarities with Hitler's early 1930's. There are no mainstream press left daring to oppose him, no prosecutor can question him for his unconstitu…

Erdogan showed his face to the world (or at least to me) when police violently dispersed the Gezi Park protesters in 2013. I suspect that the situation in Turkey only got worse since then and now the terrible terrorist attacks only add fuel to the police state's fire. And Europe is helpless as it braces for the massive waves of immigrants coming its way, with Turkey winning big political concessions in exchange for "…

From a domestic affairs perspective, it all started with the Gezi Park/Taksim Sq protest and then the revelations about the AKP corruption scandal of the same year that really set Erdogan on the defensive mode and made him very paranoid to the point of staging a mini-coup in Turkish politics and coming up with the silly accusations of a Fethulla Gulen led conspiracy of a "parallel state" within the state to justify the purge of any opposition or independent figures in the judiciary and police to secure a more docile political system that won't challenge his authority going forward and it went from bad to worse from there for Turkish people and as time goes Erdogan's paranoia seems to get stronger with no signs of abating any time soon.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#98

Post by Inthenameofmine »

thirdsun wrote: post #5

As a german I really have to wonder what's wrong with our government if we continue to cozy up to Erdogan's turkey. I really don't think having turkey as a migration buffer is worth paying the price of making the european union look like a club you can buy your way into regardless of ethics. What's the use of values if we're starting to ignore them so easily?

It might have something to do with all those German-Turkish corporate joint ventures in the Balkans. I can't remember a 6 figure corruption scandale in Kosovo and Albania that did not have a German-Turkish corporation involved.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#99

Post by k-mcgrady »

Natanael_L wrote: post #93
k-mcgrady wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "We should count ourselves lucky Turkey didn't join the EU in 1995-2008. I'd rather have an authoritarian Turkey outside of the EU than inside." On the other hand wouldn't they be subject to certain laws to prevent or reduce the authoritarianism if they were part of the EU?

Good luck enforcing it

Remove privileges. No democracy? Fine, no freedom of movement. Turkey would need the EU a hell of a lot more than it needs Turkey. Of course I'm not sure whether legally they can agree to sanctions like I suggested.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#100

Post by armaxt »

Why is it hard to understand that islam and western values just can NOT coexist?

Why is it hard to understand that "real" muslims are convinced that western values are simply weaknesses that must be quickly exploited to destroy the western civilization?

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