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U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing iPhone

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Re: U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing iPhone

#91

Reminder that the FBI used the deaths of 14 people to prop up their agenda of 'make the invoices we receive cheaper'. They chose this case and not any of the dozens of similar investigations mentioned in articles that have come out since. It's a disgrace to the victims, their families and friends. It's also a disgrace to the public, trying to scare us into complacency.

OK. But what does it say about the scant majority of the country that at least tacitly (through polls) supported the FBI in this?

I think this whole thing is every bit as much a trial balloon to see how the public accepts the various arguments. And I think that's still unclear. The polls suggest a scant majority supported the FBI, but not enough to get Congress to change the law make it clear companies can be rolled over by the government.

That means there will be a next time.

Re: U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing iPhone

#92
post #79

I wish Apple would be able to recoup their legal costs from the DoJ -- the government shouldn't be allowed to force a company to spend money on defending their rights (using our "unlimited" tax dollars to do so), only to drop the case at the last minute making the entire case moot. Apple should be able to recover their legal costs.

While I agree, the counterargument will likely be that all of Apple's lawyers are on salary and as such Apple's legal costs would be no different with or without the court proceedings.

That's kind of like saying that all of Apple's engineers are on salary, so even it it takes a team of 100 engineers 6 months to write the software the DoJ asked for, there's really no cost to Apple.

Businesses don't often pay employees to do nothing, that legal team would be doing other corporate legal work if they weren't working on this case, and I'm sure they paid outside consultants to help with the case.

Re: U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing iPhone

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PGP worked well enough for Snowden, right?

Snowden had the element of surprise. They weren't actively trying to monitor his comms because they didn't know he was a risk until after the leaks. If the state wants to decrypt your messages badly enough, they have resources that they can devote to that (as well as multiple side channels that are probably easier than forcibly decrypting, including the infamous "beat with a wrench" trick). It's not trivial to defeat…

Is there any evidence that any actor in the world is (in general) capable of figuring out the contents of e.g. an AES-encrypted message with the key unknown, assuming good opsec and a good implementation? I agree with your statement that state-level actors have strong capabilities, but this seems like a blanket statement which is likely untrue.

Re: U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing iPhone

#95
post #20
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hope the media follows up with "so what did you find out from it?" and don't just leave it to "trust us, we unlocked it".

They'll just say "can't comment on an active investigation" if they don't find anything to make the whole thing seem worthwhile.

That's why you should ignore the media reports on any legal case and read the actual court filings, or at least follow coverage written for lawyers instead of the general public, which has little interest in learning anything about how public institutions actually function.

Re: U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing iPhone

#96
post #62

I would treat this claim with a great deal of skepticism. However, this is by far the smartest play for the government. Had they gone to court and lost (probably after an appeal), they would have set a precedent that would be very problematic for them going forward. By claiming this, falsely or otherwise, they hurt Apple's security reputation (most consumers will not understand or care that this happens to be an old…

Maybe, but they didn't actually accomplish any of their real goals—making it easy to force Apple to break their security. This particular phone is immaterial, and Apple can always talk big later about how they patched any of the security holes that the government used, to recover face.

>Maybe, but they didn't actually accomplish any of their real goals—making it easy to force Apple to break their security

Unless one of their real goals was to get the conversation going about creating new laws that would make uncrackable products illegal, without actually testing the limits of existing laws. Because that is what they achieved.

> This particular phone is immaterial, and Apple can always talk big later about how they patched any of the security holes that the government used, to recover face.

That is a nuanced understanding of this issue that most consumers simply do not and will not have. Most will hear nothing other than "the feds can now crack iPhones" and will assume that government will be able to beat any future improvements too.

Re: U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing iPhone

#97
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree, the counterargument will likely be that all of Apple's lawyers are on salary and as such Apple's legal costs would be no different with or without the court proceedings.

That's kind of like saying that all of Apple's engineers are on salary, so even it it takes a team of 100 engineers 6 months to write the software the DoJ asked for, there's really no cost to Apple. Businesses don't often pay employees to do nothing, that legal team would be doing other corporate legal work if they weren't working on this case, and I'm sure they paid outside consultants to help with the case.

That is a fair point. I will reiterate that I agreed with the original poster and was positing what the counterargument presented from the courts/3 letter agencies would be.

We'll never see that counterargument regarding the cost of engineering FBiOS, since the case was withdrawn.

[Edit: we'll never see it because I believe that the FBI will not likely go after Apple again, specifically because they put up a much more forceful fight against it than the FBI ever thought they would. Admittedly I'm speculating, but I don't think I'm being unreasonable]

Re: U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing iPhone

#98

I would treat this claim with a great deal of skepticism. However, this is by far the smartest play for the government. Had they gone to court and lost (probably after an appeal), they would have set a precedent that would be very problematic for them going forward. By claiming this, falsely or otherwise, they hurt Apple's security reputation (most consumers will not understand or care that this happens to be an old…

The hearing was before a federal magistrate judge and was largely administrative. Binding precedent wouldn't have been set until the case hit a higher court on appeal (which would have been inevitable regardless of who won as both sides had significant incentives for appeal). The DOJ could have dropped the case at any point before then to avoid an undesirable precedent. Until that point, a negative ruling wouldn't have been an insurmountable problem even if other, similar cases were brought. At worst, it could be pointed to as a point of persuasive authority ("here's what another judge did, your honor - doesn't that sound grand?"), but that's not binding. A lot of coverage and discussion confused an eventual precedent with the magistrate hearing.

The most likely reason for dropping the case would have had nothing to do about precedent and everything to do with the fact that they couldn't proceed without lying to the court. The entire basis for the case was that the government had no other choice but to compel Apple to build "GovOS." The moment they became aware of the existence of an alternative method, they had a duty to update their brief and inform the court. And at that point, with the entire basis for their case effectively gone, they were pretty much out of options.

From the FBI's perspective, that was rather unfortunate. They probably figured this was the perfect case to pursue to try and gain the sort of precedent they wanted (an instance of Islamic terrorism on American soil? It checks all of the boxes for manipulating the public into supporting the FBI). Most likely, they never expected Apple to fight back for fear of the PR consequences of impeding a terror investigation. Minor miscalculation, that.

Re: U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing iPhone

#99
post #84
post #8

This is possibly the worst outcome. The tide of public opinion was turning towards Apple and privacy, and away from the FBI; for it to enter the court under this pretence there was a strong argument to be made against the latter. With this announcement, for the many, this matter will now be "resolved". When it inevitably rears its ugly head again, the same pretence may no longer be true.

I think I know what you mean but don't forget there is a specific and horrible case here too. Many people died and now the FBI has access to the phone. I don't know what the odds are that they will find anything useful in way of easing the pain of the victims or preventing an occurrence, but certainly it seems highly plausible. And at the very least a lot of resources going into this part of the investigation can now…

Most people believe the chances of the phone containing anything of value are very slim.

Re: U.S. Drops California Case Against Apple After Accessing iPhone

#100
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden had the element of surprise. They weren't actively trying to monitor his comms because they didn't know he was a risk until after the leaks. If the state wants to decrypt your messages badly enough, they have resources that they can devote to that (as well as multiple side channels that are probably easier than forcibly decrypting, including the infamous "beat with a wrench" trick). It's not trivial to defeat…

Is there any evidence that any actor in the world is (in general) capable of figuring out the contents of e.g. an AES-encrypted message with the key unknown, assuming good opsec and a good implementation? I agree with your statement that state-level actors have strong capabilities, but this seems like a blanket statement which is likely untrue.

No, and I doubt that this capability would be revealed for something at the level of San Bernardino, or anything short of "ISIS is going to do a WMD attack against Manhattan".
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