Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High • Hacker News Board

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#91

Post by fecak » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 7:43 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #22

fecak wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe that most anecdotal claims of age bias are truly a bias against someone's age, but rather a bias against someone who had a long tenure at a single company perhaps with a single technology on a single product development effort. It looks like age bias because you may be 50, but you worked on the same thing for 25 years. I don't think the industry is nearly as ripe with unemployed and relevant 50+'ers a…

Always happy to see your username on threads discussing these matters! I think you bring up an important point - your average 50 year old developer is much more likely to have spent the last 10 years at the same company, working with the same technology, maybe even with the same title, than the 35 year old developer. Most of my experience has been .Net web application development in the northeast/mid-Atlantic. I thin…

Thanks! And I think your point is pretty well made. Because of how attitudes towards job change have developed over time from being negatively labeled a 'job hopper' to now having it accepted (and somewhat expected), older devs tend to have longer tenures in one place.

Now that even the youngest of the first dotcom engineers are probably hitting their 40s, it will be interesting to see whether ageism will still be a factor in hiring for the industry.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#92

Post by toyg » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 7:47 PM UTC

ronyeh wrote: post #58

dominotw wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I am in my mid-60s and I don't feel like I have suffered any age bias either at large companies like Google or small startups I have helped. You obviously have ton of expertise and experience to make age a non issue. This is not the case for older people trying to break into programming. Employers often take a chance with younger employee over older ones if all things are equal. That is bias the article is taking ab…

Just playing devil's advocate, but isn't that a logical approach? If two junior programmers show up on my doorstep, and one is 25 and the other is 55, why wouldn't I go with the 25 year old (all other skills being equal)? If I'm lucky, maybe the young person will want to work with my company for a decade or two, or even more. Would the 55 year old want to work for several decades more? Of course, I am also worried ab…

The guy at 55 knows what he can give, he's a known quantity at all levels. He will likely hit the ground running without requiring extensive training, because he's seen it all before; and once he's settled, he will have no incentive to move on -- he stopped dreaming about jobs at Google/FB/Twitter a long time ago. If he has a problem, he'll just say it straight to your face with no anger, because he's tired of management bullshit and just wants to Get Shit Done. His kids won't need trips to the doctor/school/footie practice, because they're old enough to own their own cars; and that means the family doesn't have to go on vacation on that same school-holiday week all other young parents are fighting over.

The guy at 25 could decide at any moment that he really wanted that travel-writer career after all. He could find out he's so awesome with Scalisp 2.3 that TrendyCo is ready to sign him at 10x his current salary; or that he hates Scalisp so much he'd rather volunteer at Ebola clinics than write one line more. He could get married, have babies and see his productivity killed by sleepless nights, marital arguments, a divorce. More importantly, he will likely get bored after a few months and start angling for org changes you don't really want to have. When he has a problem, he'll just sulk because he doesn't know how to bring it up, and maybe he'll spread some venom around so the team as a whole will also suffer. He'll want to replace battle-tested solutions because he doesn't understand them, likely hitting again all bugs and corner cases that made the original implementation hard to understand. And after a few years, he'll piss off to double his salary because he has 3 years of experience in Rubynodexpress.js so qualifies as Lead Ninjastar for ShinyCorp.

When you look at it that way, why would you not hire the 55 guy?

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#93

Post by toomuchtodo » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 7:47 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #78

toomuchtodo wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Similarly, toomuchtodo suggests that as his life moves forward he'll be less willing to put the work in than his younger peers. That reduces his value." While my value is reduced by not working more hours than I'm paid for, I would argue that government should be stepping in when tech companies are discriminating against workers who would like labor law followed (paid for the hours you work). Why is it okay for work…

I'm not paid by the hour. I'm paid to deliver. This is true for most developers - typically we take a salary in return for getting stuff done. Now if you want to lawyer up and demand X hours, $Y pay, rigid adherence to various requirements, etc, that's great for you. But if people are not willing to pay you as much due to the fact that those rigid requirements are a pain, you aren't being discriminated against due to…

> I'm not paid by the hour. I'm paid to deliver. This is true for most developers - typically we take a salary in return for getting stuff done.

If you're a contractor, yes. If you're an employee, no, not at all.

> Needless to say I'm opposed to your desire for the government to hobble your competition.

Government exists to protect its citizens above profits.

Are you insinuating that labor laws should not be enforced? Or that employers should discriminate against employees who want to actually get paid for the time they work?

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#94

Post by pc86 » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 7:48 PM UTC

fecak wrote: post #91

pc86 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Always happy to see your username on threads discussing these matters! I think you bring up an important point - your average 50 year old developer is much more likely to have spent the last 10 years at the same company, working with the same technology, maybe even with the same title, than the 35 year old developer. Most of my experience has been .Net web application development in the northeast/mid-Atlantic. I thin…

Thanks! And I think your point is pretty well made. Because of how attitudes towards job change have developed over time from being negatively labeled a 'job hopper' to now having it accepted (and somewhat expected), older devs tend to have longer tenures in one place. Now that even the youngest of the first dotcom engineers are probably hitting their 40s, it will be interesting to see whether ageism will still be a…

I've definitely seen the effect of that "job hopper" mentality - I left my first development job ca. 2010 after a year and a half. My parents were terrified I'd never find another job because it'd look bad not having been there for "4 or 5 years at least." Since, I've had more than one person surprised that I've stayed at places longer than 2 years.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#95

Post by fecak » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 7:49 PM UTC

huherto wrote: post #63

I am 47. 27 years of professional experience. Got hooked in Basic. Fell in love with Pascal, C, C++, Smalltalk, Perl, and Java. Most new technologies are a re-encarnation of something that I did already the first time or second time around. I don't think my resume looks trendy. Still, I feel my skills are better than almost all of my friends and coworkers. They are 21-35. But, I see things that they don't. Subtle thi…

Recruiter here, just a couple ticks younger than you, and the less experienced recruiters probably won't look past your age. The key for you is delivering a clear marketing message that can't be misinterpreted by even the dumbest of recruiters (or avoiding those gatekeepers entirely), while knowing that your experience will have much more appeal to the more experienced engineers internally.

The resume doesn't need to 'look' trendy, but it can't look stale either.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#96

Post by marcosdumay » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 7:59 PM UTC

djb_hackernews wrote: post #65

mark_l_watson wrote: post #19

I am in my mid-60s and I don't feel like I have suffered any age bias either at large companies like Google or small startups I have helped. I sort of grew up with computers. My older brother and I got a mini version of a mechanical difference engine when I was a kid. When I was about 11 my Dad got me occasional use of a time sharing system, so that planted some desire in my brain for using computers. In high school…

How much of your career was contracting, if any? Were you an employee of Google? I have heard Google is probably the best of the SV tech giants when it comes to age discrimination, FWIW. I think contracting is a lot different and in that case more experienced consultants are preferred over younger ones where as it is the opposite when it comes to permanent employment. The thing I don't agree with is that we should be…

> The thing I don't agree with is that we should be expected to keep learning. As if knowing how to design and write software isn't enough for a solid career, we must learn the "newest" programming paradigm, latest js framework, etc.

Things change, people do discover better ways to work, and not knowing fads does impact one's ability to work in a team.

I'm in my mid 30's and I've already seen better sets of technologies appear with order of magnitude improvements twice. And I expect to claim one more time when the current fad of strict but flexible languages get sustainable.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#97

Post by fecak » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 8:00 PM UTC

tetraodonpuffer wrote: post #60

yummyfajitas wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see the problem correcting itself when it seems the drivers behind age discrimination are wages This is a situation where it's not age discrimination at all - it's merely a candidate pricing themselves out of the market. Similarly, toomuchtodo suggests that as his life moves forward he'll be less willing to put the work in than his younger peers. That reduces his value. Perhaps a significant chunk of age disc…

> it's merely a candidate pricing themselves out of the market the pricing out is not always voluntary, say you are mid-career, you've been working hard, you lucked out with some career choices, you've been getting very good raises due to your performance, now you are paid over the high end for your salary band, which is fine where you are working because you've built up credibility and a solid track record, and it c…

Salaries don't increase for an entire career in most cases, and once you hit a certain number of years in the industry we tend to see salaries plateau where some job seekers will receive (and perhaps accept) offers below their current compensation. Employers know that applicants that are long-tenured employees will be earning above market rate due to their specific value to that employer, so as long as the applicant is realistic and understands their true market value there isn't likely to be any issues in negotiation.

Job seekers often get this reality check at some point in their career - salaries don't rise forever - and will adjust their expectations accordingly.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#98

Post by chrisbennet » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 8:02 PM UTC

tetraodonpuffer wrote: post #70

true_religion wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why? Is it because there's something potentially odd about hiring someone with more experience (and perhaps thus a much greater skill level) than you when you are both on the same career track? I have never had to do it, but I'd like to think the 60-year old version of me would be much better at my job than I am. Thus, if I hire them, I'd wonder "why am I tech lead? It really should be the other way around".

> when you are both on the same career track I think this is one of the root issues, the perception that management is somehow the natural next set for software developers. Why should that be the case? It'd be like you trained all your life to be the best violin player you can be, then after some years somebody pats you on your shoulders and tells you it's time to start conducting. I am mid-career, and interestingly…

The metaphor I use is race car driver vs. race team owner. Why would I want to stop driving???

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#99

Post by halite » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 8:07 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #87

halite wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I spend time on the weekends doing projects in new technologies. Is that weekends are for? I do that too but do wonder at times...

My parents are doctors. They are in their 60s. And guess what: they still spend evenings and weekends reading medical journals, attending conferences (around the globe) and doing whatever else is necessary to keep up with new developments in their specialties. That's just what it takes to remain relevant in fast-moving fields. I think what software developers need is some perspective. We aren't the only ones who have…

Don't you think there's difference between reading about surgeries and performing those surgeries (Or POC surgeries :))? I do get what you are saying, not trying to be mean. What I'm saying is the effort and time commitment to do weekend apps sometime end up taking whole weekends including nights...all because we love doing this.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#100

Post by jlarocco » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 8:08 PM UTC

ronyeh wrote: post #58

dominotw wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I am in my mid-60s and I don't feel like I have suffered any age bias either at large companies like Google or small startups I have helped. You obviously have ton of expertise and experience to make age a non issue. This is not the case for older people trying to break into programming. Employers often take a chance with younger employee over older ones if all things are equal. That is bias the article is taking ab…

Just playing devil's advocate, but isn't that a logical approach? If two junior programmers show up on my doorstep, and one is 25 and the other is 55, why wouldn't I go with the 25 year old (all other skills being equal)? If I'm lucky, maybe the young person will want to work with my company for a decade or two, or even more. Would the 55 year old want to work for several decades more? Of course, I am also worried ab…

My money would be on the older person sticking around longer. It's very uncommon for anybody to work at the same company for decades any more, but older people tend to have children, mortgages, and other commitments that keep them from jumping around too much.

Besides that, younger people will require larger raises to keep around because the difference between 1 year of experience and 3 years of experience on a resume is significant, while 30 years vs 32 years isn't. The older person will ask for a higher initial salary, though.

I'm also skeptical the 25 year old and the 55 year old will have the same skill level, assuming the 55 year old has been in the industry for any significant amount of time.

Edit: I didn't see "junior" in your comment when I wrote my reply.