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On asking job candidates to code

philcalcado.com

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Re: On asking job candidates to code

#91

Post by busterarm »

philbarr wrote: post #77
Tunabrain wrote: post #9

> As brain-dead as I was after eight hours at my project, [..] Is giving out an 8+ hour programming project as part of the application process really considered good hiring practice? If you apply to five jobs, you're expected to spend an entire unpaid work week writing code that doesn't benefit anyone? If a company receives 20 applicants, their ideal candidate selection wastes a collective work month? I don't really…

I got laid off recently and was applying for all the jobs I could find. So I had to do a bunch of these programming projects. I don't mind them per-se, but it takes so long to do each one and you have to be ultra-clean with each one. I don't think companies take into account that you might not have that much free time. It's particularly stressful when you don't get through. On pair programming tasks, I had a pair pro…

Wholehearted agreement here. The only purpose of these challenges is to start a conversation about code. Why not just bypass the bullshit challenges and just _have a conversation about code_?

My best job experiences are exactly as you describe.

The worst have been companies that sought me out (I didn't apply) and then wasted my time during the phone screen (having background conversations with other people in the room, asking me to repeat answers to questions because they weren't listening)...I'm looking at you, Uber.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#92

Post by stuaxo »

jcadam wrote: post #89

A couple of months ago I did a 'homework' assignment for an interview (it involved writing a simple REST service in go, even though I have at least one personal project demonstrating exactly this skill -- to an even greater degree -- in my github profile). During the phone-discussion after turning in the project, the mid 20-something lead developer couldn't find anything to nitpick (I could have) and even told me he…

I'm curious where you are based, been worried about a similar thing happening, but doesn't seem to yet - (am based in UK).

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#93

Post by acjacobson »

to3m wrote: post #53
CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by probation periods? Something like... "Hi, I'd like to ask you to work for a very temporary contract with us so, if it doesn't work out, you have to scramble to find more work and maybe risk homelessness."

This is pretty standard in the UK. Your new full-time job is commonly effectively at-will for the first 3 months, and possibly more. See, e.g., http://www.jobsite.co.uk/worklife/probation-periods-19677/

In the US almost all employment is at-will - even if you've worked at a company for years. Probationary periods here typically mean that you are hired as an independent contractor without the benefits that are usually given with a full-time position such as health, dental, and retirement benefits.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#94

Post by [deleted] »

cuillevel3 wrote: post #51
Tunabrain wrote: post #9

> As brain-dead as I was after eight hours at my project, [..] Is giving out an 8+ hour programming project as part of the application process really considered good hiring practice? If you apply to five jobs, you're expected to spend an entire unpaid work week writing code that doesn't benefit anyone? If a company receives 20 applicants, their ideal candidate selection wastes a collective work month? I don't really…

I've been looking into changing jobs and yes: it is a huge time sink. Traveling to interviews, being available for phone calls, preparing and researching... Especially the smaller companies are struggling to set up a good hiring process. I tried to discuss salary ranges before going into interviews to filter out some companies, but it didn't help. One recruiter put me on a one hour train ride, turns out there was som…

[deleted]

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#95

Post by danbolt »

eli wrote: post #37
MiddleEndian wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to play devil's advocate, being excellent at programming is also only a heuristic for working as a professional programmer.

Very true! I find it disappointing that many candidates appear to put little effort in their cover letter. It's a chance to show me you can communicate well, which is maybe the single most important skill in working on a team.

I feel like cover letters are an easy way to show that you've thought about the company you're applying for, but in my experience I've never got the impression that my cover letter was actually read in the application process.

I could be plenty wrong though, and I'd love to hear from HR/recruiters about their experiences with cover letters.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#96

Post by dasboth »

JonoBB wrote: post #75
Tunabrain wrote: post #9

> As brain-dead as I was after eight hours at my project, [..] Is giving out an 8+ hour programming project as part of the application process really considered good hiring practice? If you apply to five jobs, you're expected to spend an entire unpaid work week writing code that doesn't benefit anyone? If a company receives 20 applicants, their ideal candidate selection wastes a collective work month? I don't really…

For promising candidates, we ask that they complete a pre-specified project in their own time. The project takes most candidates 2-3 hours to complete. The difference is that we do this as paid work. Whatever their going rate is, we'll match it. A surprisingly high number of candidates interview quite well and look promising on paper, but fail horribly in a "real world" coding test.

That sounds entirely reasonable; by paying, you're respecting the time the candidates have to put aside and chances are it will motivate people to do better.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#97

Post by LoSboccacc »

we use this http://play.elevatorsaga.com/ because it's extremely easy to understand, is open to multiple solution and immediately sort out both who doesn't understand queues, priorities, closures but most importantly who has completely no empathy and win level pushing numbers instead of satisfying clients.

it also takes very little time to introduce and solve which is a plus since we prefer to give it out in-office. but we do tell the candidate beforehand that there will be a 15 coding challenge so they don't panic.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#98

Post by jcadam »

stuaxo wrote: post #92
jcadam wrote: post #89

A couple of months ago I did a 'homework' assignment for an interview (it involved writing a simple REST service in go, even though I have at least one personal project demonstrating exactly this skill -- to an even greater degree -- in my github profile). During the phone-discussion after turning in the project, the mid 20-something lead developer couldn't find anything to nitpick (I could have) and even told me he…

I'm curious where you are based, been worried about a similar thing happening, but doesn't seem to yet - (am based in UK).

Oh, I'm in Florida. The local market isn't that great (though I am presently employed) so I've been interviewing for remote jobs.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#99

Post by mtberatwork »

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #11
orng wrote: post #4

I really hate having to solve these kind of programming challenges. I've already sent you my CV, with references from former/current employers and co-workers. Call them up if you are worried that I'm lying on my résumé, don't waste my time by making me work for the chance of maybe getting a job as only payment. Doing multiple interviews already takes up enough of my time, seeing as I'm the one who has to commute to y…

The problem is: Writing good resumes and having a lot of experience with programming is a good heuristic for "experience" and "knows how to play the game" but not meaningfully useful for "excellent at programming". Work-sample tests measure the latter. A worker's experience is a heuristic for programming skill, but a heuristic of a heuristic is like an average of a set of averages: Useless.

> Work-sample tests measure the latter.

I think that's debatable. The quality of your measurement is then simply a function of how well your tests are in the first place. Do you really think giving a person FizzBuzz is any kind of accurate predictor of future success at a job?

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#100

Post by dasboth »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #76
emodendroket wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, for one, am tired of processes that don't respect my time.

Would you rather Some Co. just hire you and try you out for a few months simply based on your resume?

Of course not, but it is (or at least should be) a two-way process. If the interviewer wants you to invest hours of your time this should be respected; either by paying for it, or at least by being sensitive to the fact that people generally apply to jobs while already employed somewhere. So don't give them a 24-hour deadline on a programming task that takes 4-5 hours, things like that.
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