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German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

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Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#91

Post by rayiner »

coldtea wrote: post #56
brakmic wrote: post #15

I doubt they have capable programmers working for them. A few years ago the Chaos Computer Club discovered the 'predecessor' version of this State-Trojan ("Bundestrojaner"). This version was a perfect example what happens when you _want_ to have such a software but your programmers _suck_ at even most basic things (like establishing a working traffic-encryption). Here's the video (in German): https://youtu.be/zAV-hTp…

> We shouldn't fear their 'capabilities' but rather their lack of knowledge that'll ultimately lead to 'open systems' which can later be exploited by other criminals. We should fear their intent. Their capabilities are beside the point -- they could hire the very best tomorrow if they found they need to.

Not only that, they could take over the already-built infrastructure of tech companies tomorrow if they wanted to.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#93

Post by rbehrends »

thinkindie wrote: post #29

considered how Germans are obsessed with privacy and state surveillance (see for example cash usage vs electronic payments), let's see a country going nut in 3 2 1 ...

Its legitimate use is so restricted (§20k BKAG [1] in conjunction with §4a BKAG [2]) that this would be a waste of everybody's time and effort; there's bigger fish to fry where privacy is concerned. Illegitimate use of such tools is (potentially) a different story, but that's part of the bigger problem of effectively controlling the BND and the other intelligence services.

[1] https://dejure.org/gesetze/BKAG/20k.html

[2] https://dejure.org/gesetze/BKAG/4a.html

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#94

Post by germanier »

throwaway21816 wrote: post #90
throwaway21816 wrote: post #73

When the state has a monopoly on force any speech against them is hate speech. Defending the censorship of people you dont like will simply come back to bite you.

Today it may be good fun to watch people with a differing opinion get arrested and harassed as a part of "justice" but tomorrow when they decide you dont need encryption and youre the one being targeted it wont be so funny.

You are not arrested for "having an opinion" but if you call for violence, deny the holocaust or endorse genocide. Those are not opinions.

Nobody moves the definition every day and it has nothing to do with encryption nor can those laws ever used against encryption by definition as they all include doing something in public.

Probably everybody who knows the German society will know whether something is "just an opinion" or violates one of those laws just be looking at most statements. It's one of those "I know when I see it" definitions that is shared among Germans. That being said courts have created very narrow and clear precedent on those laws.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#95

Post by rudolf0 »

brakmic wrote: post #15

I doubt they have capable programmers working for them. A few years ago the Chaos Computer Club discovered the 'predecessor' version of this State-Trojan ("Bundestrojaner"). This version was a perfect example what happens when you _want_ to have such a software but your programmers _suck_ at even most basic things (like establishing a working traffic-encryption). Here's the video (in German): https://youtu.be/zAV-hTp…

Am I the only one who has no issue with these kinds of things? As long as they're treated like a regular wiretap, and only used on a crime suspect with a lawful warrant, what's the actual problem with this?

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#96

Post by throwaway21816 »

throwaway21816 wrote: post #90
throwaway21816 wrote: post #73

When the state has a monopoly on force any speech against them is hate speech. Defending the censorship of people you dont like will simply come back to bite you.

Today it may be good fun to watch people with a differing opinion get arrested and harassed as a part of "justice" but tomorrow when they decide you dont need encryption and youre the one being targeted it wont be so funny.

>You are not arrested for "having an opinion" but if you call for violence, deny the holocaust or endorse genocide. Those are not opinions.

Those are all opinions. An opinion is a view or judgement on a given item. Just because they are opinions you do not like doesn't make them anything more than opinions.

>Nobody moves the definition every day and it has nothing to do with encryption nor can those laws ever used against encryption by definition as they all include doing something in public.

Nobody moves to definition? Talk to me about the use of spyware on citizens, I'm pretty sure that definition just got moved.

>Probably everybody who knows the German society will know whether something is "just an opinion" or violates one of those laws just be looking at most statements. It's one of those "I know when I see it" definitions that is shared among Germans. That being said courts have created very narrow and clear precedent on those laws.

Well if the state say so then it has to be okay right?

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#98

Post by germanier »

throwaway21816 wrote: post #96
throwaway21816 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Today it may be good fun to watch people with a differing opinion get arrested and harassed as a part of "justice" but tomorrow when they decide you dont need encryption and youre the one being targeted it wont be so funny.

>You are not arrested for "having an opinion" but if you call for violence, deny the holocaust or endorse genocide. Those are not opinions. Those are all opinions. An opinion is a view or judgement on a given item. Just because they are opinions you do not like doesn't make them anything more than opinions. >Nobody moves the definition every day and it has nothing to do with encryption nor can those laws ever used ag…

The thing is, this discussion is really off-topic. This spyware has nothing to do with hate-speech laws. It's supposed to be used in instances where wiretapping is legal but not possible. The idea is that the spyware wiretaps "at the source". Again, that has absolutely nothing to do with hate-speech laws and no definition has been shifted.

You will probably not even find a reasonable number of people living in Germany in favor of repealing those laws let alone something near a majority. Those laws are ok because the people living here are ok with those kinds of hate-speech laws. If you don't like it you are free to stay away from Germany.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#99

Post by maze-le »

germanier wrote: post #87
Xylakant wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're looking for samples you'll probably find sufficient if you're looking for NPD affiliates (they're not illegal either). If you look up cases where the affiliation is left-wing or anarchist you'll find even more. The standards for teachers are really very strict [1] - the must be "weltanschaulich neutral". There's certainly a debate to be had about whether they're too strict, but IMHO, Höcke is so far across…

When I started working in public sector I had to sign that I'm not a member of an unconstitutional group. As examples it included a list similar to this one: https://www.justiz.bayern.de/media/pdf/verzeichnis_extrorgan... It includes left-wing, right-wing, and islamist extremist groups. Interestingly this list also contains the leftist party "Die Linke" which now has been a member of the federal parliament for a rath…

Interesting list indeed, and not only the entry for "Die Linke" is at least questionable
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