Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools • Hacker News Board

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#91

Post by hackuser » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 10:19 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #69

How much of this will go to good teachers and interesting programs? And how much will simply be spent on overpriced machines (microsoft) and proprietary "connected classroom" concepts (apple)? You don't need much equipment to teach CS. Basic machines will do. And there is no need to spend any money on software these days (f/oss). I worry that this money is less an educational initiative and more a handout to those co…

> there is no need to spend any money on software these days (f/oss)

I think FOSS should be considered, but more important is that they study which software gets the best results and pay for that if needed. Also, let's remember that FOSS often is not user-friendly and most students have nothing close to the typical aptitude found on HN, nor the interest, nor the expertise and years of experience. Most will not grow up to be professionals in the IT industry. Emacs and Vim probably aren't going to yield the best results, for example.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#92

Post by ap22213 » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 10:19 PM UTC

Taek wrote: post #81

Kephael wrote: post #68

I don't believe there is any shortage of computer science talent. I believe there is only a shortage of students graduating with CS degrees from schools like Stanford and MIT which is what many employers are looking for. NACE figures really seem to indicate we don't need more junior level programmers as 42.5% of graduating seniors majoring in CS did not have a full time job offer (not even in unrelated fields) at the…

As someone who has been trying to hire CS talent, I can say that most of my interviews have been pretty underwhelming. Maybe 10% possess the level of talent and interest that we're looking for, and as few as 50% can even code fibbonacci. Like 20% are able to write a successful nlogn sort. And that's after I tell them that sorting will be a part of their interview! I'm not sure that more schooling is the answer, but I…

How many people do you interview annually? Do you happen to keep metrics of what things your top performers did well at the interview? I'm curious to know if implementing a sort correlates with performance.

I've probably done > 100 interviews, and it's hard to see the correlations. Man, I so wish I would have kept records.

Of the many people that I've worked with, I'd say < 0.5% have been 3x programmers, maybe 5% have been 2x programmers, 20% have been 1x programmers, and the rest have been ... meh. (In comparison to me, and I'd guess that I'm probably a 3x programmer.) And, ALMOST ALL of these people had successfully passed an algorithm and programming based interview.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#93

Post by dsfyu404ed » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 10:31 PM UTC

hackuser wrote: post #91

sandworm101 wrote: post #69

How much of this will go to good teachers and interesting programs? And how much will simply be spent on overpriced machines (microsoft) and proprietary "connected classroom" concepts (apple)? You don't need much equipment to teach CS. Basic machines will do. And there is no need to spend any money on software these days (f/oss). I worry that this money is less an educational initiative and more a handout to those co…

> there is no need to spend any money on software these days (f/oss) I think FOSS should be considered, but more important is that they study which software gets the best results and pay for that if needed. Also, let's remember that FOSS often is not user-friendly and most students have nothing close to the typical aptitude found on HN, nor the interest, nor the expertise and years of experience. Most will not grow u…

O-O_language + $free_IDE is good enough for the vast majority of educational programming. There are free gui "intro to intro to programming" drag + drop IDEs/teaching tools available as well.

IMO there is no need to pay for programming related software in an educational environment

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#94

Post by nommm-nommm » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 10:33 PM UTC

Taek wrote: post #81

Kephael wrote: post #68

I don't believe there is any shortage of computer science talent. I believe there is only a shortage of students graduating with CS degrees from schools like Stanford and MIT which is what many employers are looking for. NACE figures really seem to indicate we don't need more junior level programmers as 42.5% of graduating seniors majoring in CS did not have a full time job offer (not even in unrelated fields) at the…

As someone who has been trying to hire CS talent, I can say that most of my interviews have been pretty underwhelming. Maybe 10% possess the level of talent and interest that we're looking for, and as few as 50% can even code fibbonacci. Like 20% are able to write a successful nlogn sort. And that's after I tell them that sorting will be a part of their interview! I'm not sure that more schooling is the answer, but I…

>Maybe 10% possess the level of talent and interest that we're looking for

I am curious how you judge "interest."

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#95

Post by its2complicated » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 10:34 PM UTC

This is just more bullshit to waste money on. In 8 years of development, I can count on one hand the programmers who showed any interest in programming outside of work, or that have GitHub accounts, or that know what a Binary Tree is. Programming has become, for the most part, Web development and the barrier to entry is so low that anyone can enter it after studying material off the Internet and watching YouTube videos. To be even more controversial, CS is not even needed for most programming today, but only for passing interviews.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#96

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 10:35 PM UTC

dreamdu5t wrote: post #45

nacs wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learning a programming language is also about as difficult (and probably easier for some) than learning a foreign language (Spanish, French, etc) for 1-2 years which most states require.

I would just like to point out that students in the US do not actually learn languages in school. The "1-2 years" is hardly sufficient and US students do not graduate with the ability to read/write/speak another language besides English, as kids in countries like Taiwan, Netherlands, etc. do

[deleted]

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#97

Post by bobwaycott » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 10:36 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #77

devsquid wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man................. You raise a good point. I read the headline and was pretty stoked to see my country reinvesting in itself. But this is US, fuck. I think iPads are wonderful devices, but to think a school would buy them for their students just seems stupid and short sighted. I think Chromebooks offer the most compelling class room solution. They are hyper secure, come with a keyboard, and extremely easy to manage…

Computer equipment for schools is all about limiting how they can be used. iPad are given trackers. Desktops are locked behind content filters. The last thing anyone wants is some kid running unauthorized code.

I think the last thing anyone wants in a school system is some kid accessing porn, or something judged to be equally offensive. I see school tech policies each year. They're never worried about, and rarely ever mention anything that could arguably be interpreted as, prohibiting running unauthorized code. That would require school administrators to know what unauthorized code is.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#98

Post by ghufran_syed » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 10:43 PM UTC

Do we really want to "reduce such a beautiful and meaningful art form to something so mindless and trivial[?]; no culture could be so cruel to its children as to deprive them of such a natural,satisfying means of human expression. How absurd!" - Lockhart [1]. He was talking about math, but I am sure the same results would occur with computer science "education" if done in high schools.

"One of the best ways to stifle the growth of an idea is to enshrine it in an educational curriculum." - Hal Abelson[2]

[1] https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.... [2] https://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~bh/ssch0/foreword.html

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#99

Post by ChicagoBoy11 » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 10:53 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #69

How much of this will go to good teachers and interesting programs? And how much will simply be spent on overpriced machines (microsoft) and proprietary "connected classroom" concepts (apple)? You don't need much equipment to teach CS. Basic machines will do. And there is no need to spend any money on software these days (f/oss). I worry that this money is less an educational initiative and more a handout to those co…

You are unfortunately right on the money. Having spent the past few years in this space, I've been shocked at how quickly my drive and desire to work in it has eroded. None of this is really about driving kids into CS/engineering -- to your point, the only investment you'd really need for that to happen at this point is fantastic teachers. Instead, the vast, vast majority of this money will go into buying useless crap, overhead, and consulting fees, with little to nothing to show for it in terms of educational achievement. All you have to do is to go into the vast, vast majority of classrooms that are pushing these "coding" initiatives nowadays to quickly realize how little stakeholders are actually caring about what kids are getting from these classes.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#100

Post by brendanr » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 11:11 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #69

How much of this will go to good teachers and interesting programs? And how much will simply be spent on overpriced machines (microsoft) and proprietary "connected classroom" concepts (apple)? You don't need much equipment to teach CS. Basic machines will do. And there is no need to spend any money on software these days (f/oss). I worry that this money is less an educational initiative and more a handout to those co…

For Code.org, you will find https://code.org/about/2015 to be quite interesting, including a breakdown of where money was spent. You'll see that a lot goes towards training teachers and building interesting programs.