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All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

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Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#91

Post by mback00 »

orionblastar wrote: post #88
Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #7

I think it's worth pointing out that education is a filtering mechanism, if a terribly inefficient one. After basic maths and literacy are learned, it imparts little on the average student. A collage degree is a proxy for a reasonable IQ and moderately high conscientiousness. Thinking of education as an inefficient filtering mechanism helps illustrate why our frenzy for more education is misguided. Certainly more eff…

I worked a programming job for a law firm. I earned an associate's degree because I could not afford a four year degree. I majored in data processing with the programming option. When I applied for the job only an associates was required and it was 1997. After the Dotcom bubble burst in 1999-2000 HR decided to rewrite job descriptions. So they had me rewrite the job description for my position. I wrote that it needed…

U need to branch out and prove what you are saying is true -- and u don't need to relocate... That is the strength of being a uber hacking sw "man of foo" that you are. If you are right, then your true value is an order of magnitude more than your employer is willing to pay. "Good!" -- prove it!!! Go to stack exchange and up your rep. Market yourself and go grab another job... But in all cases, (and respectfully) stop with the whining already.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#92

Post by nkurz »

analyst74 wrote: post #85

As a foreigner, I have to ask, is life very different for non-white working classes? Is it better, worse or equally suck in different ways?

It's dangerous to generalize, but as a white American originally from a poor rural part of the US with few minorities, I'd say that the regional and economic differences usually trump the racial differences. In most communities being white would be an advantage, but the rich/poor divide is often greater than the white/non-white divide. Prejudice certainly plays a role in the opportunities people have, but I think that may be more of a hindrance in more lucrative and prestigious positions than for general labor. I'd guess the difference is also larger for the unemployed than the employed.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#93

Post by bsder »

itchyouch wrote: post #84
unexistance wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first step in solving this is to actually aware this is happening, then try to make others aware of the same... Then try to do things that are non-hedonistic and/or non-consumeristic (not sure if there's such a word)... Yeah, it's a LOT harder than it sounds, but that's the least we can do IMHO and keep your family and/or friends together, and always try to leave a good image in their eye

There was a comment on Reddit about the ingredients to relationships: Common purpose/Shared interest, serendipitous meeting, continual facetime (IIRC). Schools and churches form a ton of relationships due to their nature of bringing people together under a singular purpose and allowing for serendipitous connections to form. It doesn't have to be church that brings people together, and there are other communities that…

> It doesn't have to be church that brings people together, and there are other communities that have church like qualities such as car clubs, user groups, etc.

Participation in social activities requires time--the presupposition that you aren't working two jobs to make ends meet.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#94

Post by jurassic »

This level of inequality makes me sad. Really sad. I know I can't be the only working stiff in the valley whose poor siblings and family think they are rich for earning in the $100-150k range. Nevermind that I can't afford to buy a house here. I can't enjoy my success because of the near-desperate financial situations I see my relatives enduring.

My sister gave me a $50 gift for christmas, and it brought tears to my eyes because she's a single mother making the federal minimum wage of $7.15/hr. That comes out to $290/wk, before taxes, if she's lucky and gets a full week's worth of hours. To earn that pittance, she is physically laboring and might have to work 7 days a week to get enough hours in the schedule.

It makes me feel like a douche every time I think about it. Me sitting there in my Aeron chair, eating free snacks while reading code. And making ~10x what she does. When I really think about it, from similar beginnings, only a relatively small number of key decisions separate our two economic outcomes.

I try to give generously to assuage my guilt. But I've found that there are limits to what can be given without stirring resentment, or provoking attempts at reciprocity. That's how this $50 gift came about... I bought some nice stuff for her kid, and she wanted to show her gratitude.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#95

Post by [deleted] »

Dr_tldr wrote: post #90
Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #7

I think it's worth pointing out that education is a filtering mechanism, if a terribly inefficient one. After basic maths and literacy are learned, it imparts little on the average student. A collage degree is a proxy for a reasonable IQ and moderately high conscientiousness. Thinking of education as an inefficient filtering mechanism helps illustrate why our frenzy for more education is misguided. Certainly more eff…

This sounds a lot like the "Just World" fallacy under the cover of genetics. At one point 99% of the population was illiterate and living in thatch huts, and no doubt members of the elite at that time also considered this to be an expression of natural order as well. But as it turns out, almost all of those peasants were capable of learning to read, doing algebra, engaging in abstract reasoning, labor coordination, a…

[deleted]

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#96

Post by yummyfajitas »

jurassic wrote: post #94

This level of inequality makes me sad. Really sad. I know I can't be the only working stiff in the valley whose poor siblings and family think they are rich for earning in the $100-150k range. Nevermind that I can't afford to buy a house here. I can't enjoy my success because of the near-desperate financial situations I see my relatives enduring. My sister gave me a $50 gift for christmas, and it brought tears to my…

Would you be more sad if her salary went up to $15/hour (~2x), but yours went up to $210/hour (~3x, assuming you started from $70 ~= 10 x $7)? If this would not make you sad, then inequality isn't really the problem.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#97

Post by collyw »

watmough wrote: post #16

There is simply not enough 'work' any more. Here's a thought. Why can't we as a society ensure that everyone is paid a living wage according to their need. It may take a while, but I believe this will be the only way that we can hold this society* together. * Deep irony here, speaking as one of 'Thatcher's children'.

So I guess every street around you is perfectly clean, you never have to wait for a doctor appointment and your life works with 100% efficiency? Of course there is plenty of work that needs done. The resources to pay for it are misallocated.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#98

Post by danieltillett »

Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #34
danieltillett wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education alone does tend to make people better neighbours. There is true value in education, but unfortunately the only market demand is for people who are intelligent, conscientious and educated in certain fields. Hit all three and you are in demand otherwise a life of dead end jobs awaits you.

Education is a proxy for IQ and conscientiousness. People with these characteristics (and importantly the wealth this provides) tend to make better neighbours. Zuck dropped out of college, yet I very much doubt he'd be a terrible neighbour, nor would a neighbourhood full of Harvard dropouts be bad.

Yes education correlates quite tightly with intelligence and conscientiousness, but just raising education levels on their own makes for better neighbours. Education is a good thing for all - the problem is we don’t have the jobs to go with all this education.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#99

Post by randycupertino »

jurassic wrote: post #94

This level of inequality makes me sad. Really sad. I know I can't be the only working stiff in the valley whose poor siblings and family think they are rich for earning in the $100-150k range. Nevermind that I can't afford to buy a house here. I can't enjoy my success because of the near-desperate financial situations I see my relatives enduring. My sister gave me a $50 gift for christmas, and it brought tears to my…

I feel you. My brother is a restaurant manager in the middle of Kansas making 30k a year. And he is a smart guy who was a MATH MAJOR at a state school! He could come out here and get a job at a startup and make 80k easily. But he won't leave his inlaws family, so he's stuck in Kansas.

There is some strain and resentment in our relationship over our income differential, sure... especially when I want to complain that I'll never be able to afford a 1.4 million dollar house on the Peninsula because I only make 150k. It's just pointless to even bring that up to him because I know I will come off as an ass. However in some ways, he has it better than me. He and his wife bought a nice 4 bedroom rancher on a half-acre lot with an inground pool for 120k- which I will never ever be able to afford around here in my lifetime barring some unicorn ipo.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#100

Post by danieltillett »

Dr_tldr wrote: post #90
Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #7

I think it's worth pointing out that education is a filtering mechanism, if a terribly inefficient one. After basic maths and literacy are learned, it imparts little on the average student. A collage degree is a proxy for a reasonable IQ and moderately high conscientiousness. Thinking of education as an inefficient filtering mechanism helps illustrate why our frenzy for more education is misguided. Certainly more eff…

This sounds a lot like the "Just World" fallacy under the cover of genetics. At one point 99% of the population was illiterate and living in thatch huts, and no doubt members of the elite at that time also considered this to be an expression of natural order as well. But as it turns out, almost all of those peasants were capable of learning to read, doing algebra, engaging in abstract reasoning, labor coordination, a…

You might enjoy reading A Farewell to Alms [1].

More importantly your two positions are not excludable. It is possible that the elite of the past were wrong and some segment of the population is incapable of being raised any higher. I personally doubt this is the case, but it has not been ruled out.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Farewell_to_Alms

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