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Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

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Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#91
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're certainly not poor, but if they've saved that stash just to blow it all on end-of-life care, they're not really wealthy in the perceived 1% sense.

Someone with $2.5m to spend on end of life care is a heck of a lot wealthier than someone with $250k to spend on end of life care. No matter what, if everything else is equal, someone with $2.5m is very wealthy. Arguments like "Ah, but they're not really wealthy because..." will always fail because there'll always be the case of someone in the same situation who doesn't have $2.5m, at which point the person with $2.5…

Yeah, even $200k is very good, that's like 4 houses in India. Most people don't even own one.

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#92
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know the world is about to enter a deflationary period? With that kind of inside knowledge you can get quite rich.

The central banks are turning off the money taps, growth is pretty stagnant across all major economies (bar the US and UK). Wealth inequality is rising while automation is arriving with a bang putting people out of their jobs and at an increasing rate and also putting downward pressure on prices as manufacturing costs fall, meaning the masses won't be spending much. China was a major driver of global economic growth…

Not true. If you're really sure of yourself you can leverage up without much money.

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#93
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yet poverty as a whole is decreasing according to numerous measures. Yep. You lift people out of poverty through growth, something capitalists are very good at.

Indeed witness the successes of Brazil! A country under the direction of US capitalism since 1964" with massive natural resources, no nearby enemies ... It's got very dire poverty and extreme wealth inequality. Vs the countries in Eastern Europe with none of those advantages. Most Brazilians would kill to live like an average person from there.

I don't understand your point, poverty in Eastern Europe has fallen tremendously after the switch to capitalism, but you're saying it has nothing to do with it?

Inequalities might have risen a bit though, I don't know.

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#94
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Markets are basically people buying and selling stuff. If some people sell their houses there hence exists a property market and so on. If I sell houses and sell you a share in my business then shares exist. If you and similar people offer your shares for sale then a stock market exists. So these things come about fairly organically if people buy and sell stuff. The LLCs and similar are embellishments to make things…

That house has value because it is connected to a road, power plant, sewer system, running water, etc. in a municipality that provides schools, EMS, firefighting, police, etc. Its future value is protected by zoning which ensures loud/ugly/polluting/busy buildings will not be located nearby. It is reasonable for the mortgage lender to make the loan because such contracts are enforceable in court, and it can count on…

"Very little about the real estate market is emergent. This is an excellent example of a market created by society."

What is the difference between the market being "emergent" and being created by society?

Isn't "created by society" just code for a process that's happened without any one person planning it, over a long time, adding more and more rules to make the world like it is? That's sounds pretty "emergent" to me.

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#95
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The central banks are turning off the money taps, growth is pretty stagnant across all major economies (bar the US and UK). Wealth inequality is rising while automation is arriving with a bang putting people out of their jobs and at an increasing rate and also putting downward pressure on prices as manufacturing costs fall, meaning the masses won't be spending much. China was a major driver of global economic growth…

Not true. If you're really sure of yourself you can leverage up without much money.

Much is still some.

Edit: I got down-voted because I've got no money?

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#96
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> isn't "busting their asses" It is if that invested money came from say, pouring metal in a foundry 60 hours a week for 40 years.

If two people do the same amount of hard work, but one ends up a millionaire because they bought a house in the right area 40 years previously, then being a millionaire has nothing to do with their hard work. They are not rich because they "busted their ass" for 60 hours a week. They're rich because they were lucky to live in the right geographical area. Hard work is replicable. Whether that's hard work pouring metal…

The "standard" middle class way to wealth is to work hard, save as much as you can, and put your savings into investments that will grow your money.

While a lot of people go the "buy a house" route, and make most of their investment gains from the house appreciating, others will put their money into e.g. the stock market and make their returns there.

Which part of this do you think "doesn't count" or has "nothing to do with hard work"?

If we were talking about only people who worked hard, put X% of each salary into the stock market, and ended up wealthy because their investments paid off, would that count as "getting rich from hard work"? Is your objecting specifically with the fact that their chosen investment was in a house?

Don't forget, buying a house is the same as putting money into a diversified stock portfolio in terms of work - they had to save X% of their salary to pay off a mortgage instead of putting it into the stock market, but effectually they worked the same amount and saved the same amount to end up at the same place. I don't think it's worth making a big point of difference over which exact vehicle they chose to put their investments in, as it obscures the point.

Note: I recommend the stock market instead of buying a house because, like parent says, investing in a house is more of a lottery.

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#97
post #90

So, I know this is a complicated issue that has been discussion with a lot of emotion and even anger. I find it very difficult to make any sense of it all, because it strikes me that in every discussion some crucial things are mixed up so much that the entire discussion strikes me as unproductive most of the time. In single back and forth's, we mix up: - the meaning of words - the specificity of the argument (say, ac…

It might be good to explore some of the books that are considered classics with regards to free market capitalism. Adam Smith's writings, along with Milton Friedman and Friedrich Hayek, will give you a much more nuanced understanding of the philosophies behind the ideas of the 'right'. The Road to Serfdom is one I would suggest starting with. I think you will find some much more powerful arguments for right wing economics from these authors than you will find in most of today's writing on the subject as well. I think it will help you think about the issues more clearly and independently as well (by better understanding both sides), to come up with your own arguments. IMHO, I've tried reading what are considered 'classics' of left wing economics, and fail to find the same nuance, or arguments that are materially different from what is written today. Of course this could be just my own opinion, so I would love to hear your views after reading.

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#98
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed witness the successes of Brazil! A country under the direction of US capitalism since 1964" with massive natural resources, no nearby enemies ... It's got very dire poverty and extreme wealth inequality. Vs the countries in Eastern Europe with none of those advantages. Most Brazilians would kill to live like an average person from there.

I don't understand your point, poverty in Eastern Europe has fallen tremendously after the switch to capitalism, but you're saying it has nothing to do with it? Inequalities might have risen a bit though, I don't know.

yeah, he really cut his own branch very efficiently... we had central planning (with heavy guidance from those fckers from Moscow that invaded us in '68) that just didn't work in long term. People were considering bananas and oranges exotic hard-to-get stock in shops with empty shelves. I recall my parents standing 2 hour queues in crazy weekend hours in -15 Celsius just to get their son some fruit with vitamin C (or fresh bread).

Capitalism ain't perfect, far from it, but what we had here was a major clusterfck, no thank you. And what changed is move to open economy, call it capitalism if you want. With its own warts and issues, but much better overall.

Previous regime got the worst out of people, this at least tries to do the opposite.

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#99
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This article says nothing about whether poverty as a whole is decreasing? They are saying the inequalities are growing, whereas the world bank report says the inequalities in income are shrinking progressively. That's a very different view.

Inequalities are shrinking not because everyone is getting richer but because the middle class is being hollowed out. People who used to be middle income earners are now low income earners making them more in line with the working class who were always low income earners. #progress

At least in the US more people have moved up out of the middle class and into the upper tiers, than have moved down and out of it. That is true over 15, 30, 45 year spans.

Progress indeed. The middle class is getting richer more than they're getting poorer.

http://i.imgur.com/APbN9Th.png

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#100
post #90

So, I know this is a complicated issue that has been discussion with a lot of emotion and even anger. I find it very difficult to make any sense of it all, because it strikes me that in every discussion some crucial things are mixed up so much that the entire discussion strikes me as unproductive most of the time. In single back and forth's, we mix up: - the meaning of words - the specificity of the argument (say, ac…

What a great question! I hope I can help.

The biggest differences in economic debates are not between people who have different viewpoints. The biggest differences are between people who have actually studied economics and know what they're talking about, and most people, who are saying things that don't make sense, and basing most of their arguments on misunderstandings and wishful thinking.

I find that just reading a lot of "real" economics from real economists will usually make everything you read much, much clearer, whether you come at it from the "left" or the "right". I also tend to find that most economists are significantly to the "right" of the standard populace, which would make it even better for your needs. (This could just be my biased reading habits, but I think not - I have other thoughts on the subject but they're not for now).

Now, how can you go about reading real economists? The best way is to actually study economics, which you can do either via online videos (plenty of them available) or reading a textbook. I recommend Mankiw's "Principles of Economics" textbook, it's very readable.

If you don't have the time/inclination for reading a whole textbook, the next best thing is to read more "introduction to economics" books. A few that I highly recommend:

1. Basic Economics - Thomas Sowell. Brilliant book, was my first introduction to real economics. Most people will say it's heavily biased to the "right", so could be good for your usecase, but keep it in mind.

2. Naked Economics - Charled Wheelan. A bit shorter and lighter than Sowell, but a great book. I think it's a lot more balanced.

3. Great Courses courses on economics (audiobooks). A good one to start with is "Economics" by Timothy Taylor.

After this you can dive deeper into specific questions/areas you care about, e.g. there are brilliant courses by the Great Courses on how the stock market works, etc. Very useful to know what's actually going on in the world.

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