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I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

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Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#91
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> free time What makes you think those people have free time after 12.5 hour days and a commute out to the middle of nowhere?

> What makes you think those people have free time after 12.5 hour days and a commute out to the middle of nowhere? I think that's what the OP called the "privilege". Those that have it, don't see why others can't do the same. It comes from having a completely different world view and priorities. That's why it is common to hear "how come they don't sit down learn to code and become full stack developers, that would b…

> common to hear "how come they don't sit down learn to code and become full stack developers, that would be so easy."

Yep, that reminds me one of Phil Greenspun's smug blog posts from a while back: https://blogs.harvard.edu/philg/2011/01/26/rethinking-99-wee...

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#92
post #79
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I had the privilege of having a basic computer with dialup as a kid. My family moved so I had no friends and was bullied constantly. For this reason, I became obsessed with the computer, learned to program, and ultimately it got me a job. I'm not sure I would describe that as the height of privilege. I spent most of my childhood living in a trailer. Plenty of people I know had access to the same thing (most of t…

> I'm not sure I would describe that as the height of privilege. You probably have a better paying job and more free time than than most people (and as a nice side effect than people who bullied you probably). The privilege mentality is thinking that you made the decision to go into tech consciously because you knew it was going to be hot in 20 years and will end up with a well paying job. But it sounds like you didn…

>You probably have a better paying job and more free time than than most people (and as a nice side effect than people who bullied you probably).

That a person was lucky enough to turn their coping mechanism for abuse into an above average career is not privilege at all.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#93
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a pretty proficient programmer, but I would never have gotten there if I had to study after working 12.5 hour shifts all week - I'd still be working in the warehouse today. That's why I recognize I had privilege growing up in a country with paid-for higher education and parents who encouraged me to attend. I also support such social measures for others as I feel it would be economically inefficient if I was still…

The amount of 'free time privilege' required to become a developer is less than the amount of 'privilege' required to become almost any other well paying profession. With software, you need a cheap computer, access to the internet and time to teach yourself. That can cost about $300 and $10/month in many places. With almost anything else you need all of the above plus a college or other formal education. The barrier…

You need the time to teach yourself. There are hard limits on the amount of physical and mental work a person can do, especially if the mental work requires significant concentration. I don't see you taking account of that at all.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#94

When this "job" is replaced by robots, everyone will be better for it. Of course, these people will need to be provided for, and there are several solutions to discuss, but this job screams for automation.

The robots will still need to be maintained by people, for a while, but there will be less demand for jobs that like. The guy who gets that job will talk about how much he "studied, and sacrificed" to get the job, and will take it for granted that he has such a superior living to those who "needs get provided for".

My neighbor and I both work pretty hard on our lawns, but his always looks better because he doesn't have a giant maple tree blocking all the sunlight. He probably think's he's just better at lawn work.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#95
post #84
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure I would describe that as the height of privilege. You probably have a better paying job and more free time than than most people (and as a nice side effect than people who bullied you probably). The privilege mentality is thinking that you made the decision to go into tech consciously because you knew it was going to be hot in 20 years and will end up with a well paying job. But it sounds like you didn…

Maybe we're just misunderstanding what each other means by privilege. > why can't coal miners just start writing single page apps in React.js over a few weekends, why can't this part time middle aged mom from Walmart who was laid off as an HR person just write Android apps and make more money Absolutely, I don't think they can. They don't have the free time, and they're worn out after a long day of work. That's not t…

The term "privilege" is being used here in the social sense of the word, not the generic sense of the word. Which, to me as somebody who's spent a decent bit of time wrestling with the fact that, yes, I am incredibly privileged, is actually a little irritating--it's jargon but many people try to wedge it in as a normal word, much like (but less egregiously than) how Stallmanites try to co-opt "free".

> If a person wants to claim my background is privileged and that's what enabled it all and stake claim to what I have as a result

Which literally nobody does. That's the price of using jargon and expecting everybody to already understand you, and it's what drives me batshit. Privilege is not referring to the genesis of your accomplishments. Privilege is referring to the difficulty slider. And very, very few people in tech are at 'normal', to say nothing of 'easy' or 'very easy'. And it is generally considered gauche to roll one's eyes (and while I don't think you necessarily mean to, I kind of get that vibe a little? not maliciously) at somebody who's cranked up to 'holy shit impossible'.

I am at 'very easy' on that slider, even though I've had things that (to me) feel really shitty: my mom left town when I was ten, my brain doesn't quite work right all the time, and I am punishingly introverted. But the sum of the things working for me that were an accident of birth--I'm white, I'm male, I was born in America--is so huge by comparison that I have it on easy street. And it doesn't diminish me to acknowledge that. It does behoove me to recognize it and to help people who aren't so very fortunate, though, which is why I get real salty around here when the cryptoracist and outright racist contingents start pontificating at length about "the black mentality" or other garbage thoughts. (Which I am emphatically not saying you are doing, but happens all-too-often around here.)

Chew on this: http://danilocampos.com/2013/02/unpacking-my-knapsack-the-pr... - Danilo is an HN poster (one of my favorites) and this is a tremendous thing that's worth reading. Because he hits on something that's important, and I wish was more the focus of these discussions than "pfft, you have privilege," when he says: "Any pride I take in that hard work is dwarfed by the anxiety that I don’t yet know how to help others get to the point where they can work as hard as I have." (A lot of what defensive people see as "shut up" when the concept of privilege is invoked is really "think about what you should be grateful for, and extend graciousness to others." But that requires an understanding of the concepts involved, and...argh.)

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#96
post #90
post #8

I think it's great articles like that get posted here - it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept. It's a good reminder of privilege.

[deleted]

You absolutely deserve everything you get.

Other people have also worked their asses equally off, and did not get where you are. They also deserved what they worked for and did not get.

It is pretty confusing that people use the same word "privilege" to refer to two different but related things, the ability to get away with things you shouldn't be able to (e.g., that "affluenza" kid in the news) and the ability to avoid harm that you don't deserve. The former is stuff nobody should have, and some unjustly do. But don't confuse it with the latter; stuff that everyone should have, and some unjustly don't.

People having high-salaried jobs without qualification is the first category. People having living wages and decent, safe working conditions is the second. We're not talking about whether people get to buy the latest Wu-Tang album, or even whether they can get a dev job in AWS. We're talking about working conditions at the Amazon warehouses.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#97
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept. I absolutely would accept those employment conditions if I didn't have any other options and needed to make money to survive. I would also spend my free time learning a skill so I could get a better job at some point in the future. > It's a good reminder of privilege. It's not a matter of privilege, it's a matter of ability. In tech more than a…

> It's not a matter of privilege, it's a matter of ability. In tech more than any other field, because you don't need a college degree to get a good paying job. You just need to have the desire and ambition to learn. My takeaway from the fact that you don't need any particular formal education to get a well-paying job is that the tech industry hires and pays people without regard to ability. Like, the entire reason F…

Just to be clear, what do you mean by unable to write it?

Are the cases where people make a common mistake, but are quickly able to fix it, counted (such as forgetting to fizz and buzz for certain numbers).

What about cases where the people can code the algorithm, but can't do everything to get a program that will compile. For example, using Visual Studio with C# means some of the basic scaffolding is almost always generated and thus many developers aren't able to recall what that scaffolding is off the top of their heads.

Or is it limited to cases where they just sit there staring at a blank sheet of paper not sure how to proceed?

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#98
post #84
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure I would describe that as the height of privilege. You probably have a better paying job and more free time than than most people (and as a nice side effect than people who bullied you probably). The privilege mentality is thinking that you made the decision to go into tech consciously because you knew it was going to be hot in 20 years and will end up with a well paying job. But it sounds like you didn…

Maybe we're just misunderstanding what each other means by privilege. > why can't coal miners just start writing single page apps in React.js over a few weekends, why can't this part time middle aged mom from Walmart who was laid off as an HR person just write Android apps and make more money Absolutely, I don't think they can. They don't have the free time, and they're worn out after a long day of work. That's not t…

I think what makes you privileged is the fact you mostly don't have to deal with bullshit (that's on the edge of - or beyond - workplace law) that is described in the article in your workplace. It's only tangentially related to computers.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#99
post #96
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

You absolutely deserve everything you get. Other people have also worked their asses equally off, and did not get where you are. They also deserved what they worked for and did not get. It is pretty confusing that people use the same word "privilege" to refer to two different but related things, the ability to get away with things you shouldn't be able to (e.g., that "affluenza" kid in the news) and the ability to av…

[deleted]

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#100
post #8

I think it's great articles like that get posted here - it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept. It's a good reminder of privilege.

I don't think business people care enough about privilege to pay the salaries of software engineers. Software engineers are paid on leverage , their leverage on company profits. The lens of deservance is not productive.

My previous employer wasn't profitable for a day in its 10-year life, until it finally decided this past spring that further business wasn't worthwhile.

A nontrivial part of the money coming in came from investment capital; the remainder came from enterprise sales. In neither case did the decision to give us money have a basis of a rigorous technical analysis of our engineering output, and especially for the VCs it was based on a perception that we were a good investment.

What fuels that perception? Get some founders from famous schools. File some patents because patents look good, not because you particularly need to protect these inventions. Engage in thought leadership. Land a customer because you care about their name more than about how much they'll pay you. Convince some Gartner analyst who'll never use your product that you're innovative. Bring in a management team with connections. Design products for what journalists want more than what end users want. Hire some kids from famous schools.

(I should note that I believe my previous employer was nonetheless steadily solving actual problems, that they were paying me to solve actual problems, and that they were well-managed. But in order to keep doing that they had to make it to profitability, and the path there involved the above pressures.)

Business people don't care about privilege directly, but if these pressures are around -- which they are in practice -- privilege ends up being correlated with having positive leverage on profits.

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