I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one • Hacker News Board

Re: I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one

#91

Post by omonra » Thu, Dec 24, 2015, 7:54 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #21

The CIA did more for the anti-vaccination movement than any kind of scientific publication ever will. People that are afraid of vaccination are so for many reasons (some of them totally nonsense, others with some basis in fact). But to have actual proof that a three letter agency used a (fake) vaccination drive to gather DNA from large numbers of innocents in order to get at a fugitive was something we could have rea…

If you actually read the article, you will see that vaccinations were real.

Not to mention that this story has absolutely nothing to do with Western anti-vaxer movement.

Re: I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one

#92

Post by omonra » Thu, Dec 24, 2015, 8:05 PM UTC

spleeder wrote: post #89

Alex3917 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also the HIV epidemic is thought to have been started by government vaccination programs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_HIV/AIDS But a lot of 'pro-vaccine' folks just completely ignore the black swan problem, which is wrong. Also the flu vaccine lowers your chances of dying in any given winter, but many studies show that it increase your chances of the flu dying over the course of your life. This is becaus…

In my country (Romania) HIV was actually spread through vaccinations. Indeed that is how I got infected as an infant. The problem was supposedly not with the vaccines themselves though but with the fact that they were reusing needles.

That's a very sad story - please accept my condolences.

Is the government providing you now with retrovirals?

Re: I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one

#93

Post by Grishnakh » Thu, Dec 24, 2015, 8:38 PM UTC

Grue3 wrote: post #85

Grishnakh wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't make it compulsory, then it doesn't work. Vaccination relies on herd immunity because the vaccination doesn't work for everyone; some people can't have the vaccine (allergic to one of its components), for other people it just doesn't take effect (biological systems are unreliable like that), so you have to have an over 90% vaccination rate for herd immunity to actually work. By allowing people to opt out…

So you're arguing that flu vaccine must be mandatory? All the other vaccines (there sure are plenty)? You're just plain wrong about vaccination relying on herd immunity. Vaccine is still effective for those who take it. And the oft-repeated number "90%" has no scientific basis whatsoever, the herd immunity threshold is heavily dependent on how infectious the disease is, and plenty of other factors.

No, you're just plain wrong. Go read any of the scientific literature about it. And yes, it does have a scientific basis, that's why REAL SCIENTISTS talk about herd immunity. The vaccines are NOT effective for everyone who takes them, that's why herd immunity is necessary.

Re: I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one

#94

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Dec 24, 2015, 9:15 PM UTC

omonra wrote: post #91

jacquesm wrote: post #21

The CIA did more for the anti-vaccination movement than any kind of scientific publication ever will. People that are afraid of vaccination are so for many reasons (some of them totally nonsense, others with some basis in fact). But to have actual proof that a three letter agency used a (fake) vaccination drive to gather DNA from large numbers of innocents in order to get at a fugitive was something we could have rea…

If you actually read the article, you will see that vaccinations were real. Not to mention that this story has absolutely nothing to do with Western anti-vaxer movement.

> If you actually read the article, you will see that vaccinations were real.

And if you had read the article you would have noticed that the second part of the vaccine plan was never administered.

> Not to mention that this story has absolutely nothing to do with Western anti-vaxer movement.

People are not vaccinating their children for all kinds of reasons, one of them is a distrust of authorities to have the best interest of their children at heart. For those people the cold hard proof that authorities are willing to use vaccination programs to further other ends is certainly not going to help swing them to the other side.

Re: I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one

#95

Post by tzs » Thu, Dec 24, 2015, 9:39 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #36

astalwick wrote: post #17

I'm so not surprised by the comments here, so far. The core points here are good ones: - In a fundamentally emotional argument, you 'win' with empathy, not by beating people over the head with the same (very reasonable) arguments they've heard a hundred times. - Vaccines are certainly effective, they are the correct choice, but there are also absolutely legitimate reasons to distrust the medical and scientific argume…

It should be addressed with legislation making it a felony not to vaccinate your children by a reason early childhood age (e.g. 6 years or something), whether put in public school or not, and making proof of vaccination a requirement for federal aid for that person (e.g. student loans or assistance). There are certain things that should be up for public debate and discourse, left to the courts, or up to personal pref…

What would you think of a similar argument, but, instead of for forced vaccination, for forced compliance with following government nutritional recommendations when we feed children?

The health consequences of a childhood of poor eating are arguably as big a problem as many (but not all) of the diseases we vaccinate against were.

I've not been able to come up with a good argument to distinguish these, other than the health consequences of communicable diseases are more directly visible. Take measles, for instance. At the time a vaccine for it was developed and deployed, measles was infecting about half a million children in the US per year, and about 400 per year died. (40 years earlier, the number of cases per year was about the same, but deaths were about 20x higher).

If your kid gets measles, it is obvious that he's got a serious, dangerous health problem, especially if he is one of the ones who dies.

If you feed your kid in a way that ensures he's seriously obese and sets him on the road to almost certain diabetes by young adulthood, it's not immediately obvious to the naked eye that something is seriously wrong. Kids can have so much energy that even the fat kids can run around and ride bikes and skateboards and be active by adult standards. From an adult point of view, the main visible problem for the fat kid is likely to be social--the fat kid gets picked last for pick up sports games, things like that.

Also, what the parent could have done better to prevent the condition is more obvious with things like measles. Your kid gets measles, and I can confidently point my finger at you and say your mistake was not vaccinating.

Your kid is fat, and I can only speculate. Maybe you aren't making the kid exercise enough. Maybe you don't supervise his between meal eating and the kid has 6000 calories of candy and soda between each meal. Maybe you cook giant portions and make him clean his plate. Maybe the kid is a bully and steals the other kids' desserts at school.

So with measles since there is really only one thing parents can do wrong that can lead to the child getting it, it's easy to force people to not do that one thing. With childhood nutrition and fitness there are so many ways it can go wrong it is hard to force people to do it right. So maybe that's how forcing vaccination can be distinguished from forcing good nutrition?

Re: I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one

#96

Post by jwmerrill » Thu, Dec 24, 2015, 9:52 PM UTC

sharemywin wrote: post #62

Rotavirus Vaccine (RotaShield®) and Intussusception http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/rotavirus/vac-rotashield... And what does it protect against? a bad case of diarrhea. An intussusception is a medical condition in which a part of the intestine invaginates (folds into) into another section of intestine, similar to the way the parts of a collapsible telescope slide into one another.[1] This can often result in an…

Diarrhea kills more than a million people each year. In 2012, it was the second most common cause of deaths in children younger than five (0.76 million or 11%).

Be thankful that you live in a time and place that allow you to not take it very seriously. I know I'm thankful for this.

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diarrhea

Re: I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one

#97

Post by coldtea » Thu, Dec 24, 2015, 10:45 PM UTC

henalye wrote: post #87

coldtea wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you convince your wife when your child gets the disease that vaccination would have protected them against (which is far more likely to happen, and has cost thousands upon thousands of recorded deaths in the past)? Your question is analogous to: "If you told you kid it's ok to go out and play, and while outside a car hit him, do you let the other child ever go out again?" probability wise.

But that's exactly what happens sometimes. Family was ridiculously overprotective of me and crossing roads because my sister got run over by a car. I was barely able to go out and do anything at all outside until I managed to get out of that environment because my older cousin got herself into drugs. While this is merely anecdotal evidence, my story is not unique. The younger sibling paying dearly for the bias careta…

>But that's exactly what happens sometimes. Family was ridiculously overprotective of me and crossing roads because my sister got run over by a car.

Well yes, and it isn't the right reaction, not in this case, and neither in the example about vaccination.

Of course it's also all too human and understandable, but in the end it remains absurd.

Re: I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one

#98

Post by aharonovich » Thu, Dec 24, 2015, 11:57 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #95

pc86 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be addressed with legislation making it a felony not to vaccinate your children by a reason early childhood age (e.g. 6 years or something), whether put in public school or not, and making proof of vaccination a requirement for federal aid for that person (e.g. student loans or assistance). There are certain things that should be up for public debate and discourse, left to the courts, or up to personal pref…

What would you think of a similar argument, but, instead of for forced vaccination, for forced compliance with following government nutritional recommendations when we feed children? The health consequences of a childhood of poor eating are arguably as big a problem as many (but not all) of the diseases we vaccinate against were. I've not been able to come up with a good argument to distinguish these, other than the…

Feeding children in a specific way: costly and complicated. Vaccinating your kids: just take them to where you're told. Free and easy. Even a monkey can do it.

Re: I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one

#99

Post by aharonovich » Thu, Dec 24, 2015, 11:59 PM UTC

calinet6 wrote: post #61

vox_mollis wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a fundamentally emotional argument, you 'win' with empathy Except you don't actually win. In conceding to their fears with an empathetic approach, you are enabling their delusions. That's the problem with placating unreasonable people - doing so inevitably emboldens them.

You're thinking too logically. It is a human connection you're building with empathy, not a strategy. Play the long game.

But do you want to live with this person? If I hold an opinion that's so sub optimal and I hold it because of emotional reasons I'd like someone to shake me out of it, not pet me on the head and smile.

Re: I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one

#100

Post by prostoalex » Fri, Dec 25, 2015, 2:21 AM UTC

the8472 wrote: post #44

astalwick wrote: post #17

I'm so not surprised by the comments here, so far. The core points here are good ones: - In a fundamentally emotional argument, you 'win' with empathy, not by beating people over the head with the same (very reasonable) arguments they've heard a hundred times. - Vaccines are certainly effective, they are the correct choice, but there are also absolutely legitimate reasons to distrust the medical and scientific argume…

> legitimate reasons to distrust the medical and scientific arguments (as pointed out in the article, both medicine and the science behind drugs have been spectacularly wrong more than once) Viewing failures in isolation is not really helpful. You need to compare them to successes and the failure/success rate of the alternatives. Things get even more complicated when you start distinguishing cure/ineffective/harmful.

What if the numbers work out against vaccination?

To quote CDC http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/polio/dis-faqs.htm

"Of the 162 cases, eight cases were acquired outside the United States and imported. The last imported case caused by wild poliovirus into the United States was reported in 1993. The remaining 154 cases were vaccine-associated paralytic polio (VAPP) caused by live oral poliovirus vaccine (OPV)."

162 polio-related issues, 8 from actual virus, 154 from the vaccine.