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My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

theguardian.com

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Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#91

Post by gravypod »

sofaofthedamned wrote: post #83
jarek91 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no degree. I attended exactly two of the three semesters of college for which I paid. I make a very nice living running servers and writing code at my company. Before this, I have worked in construction and as the guy under your car in one of those quick oil change places. I've been an outboard mechanic. The world owed me nothing. I have made my own way and earned everything that I've gotten. I respect hard wo…

I'm similar to you - only went to University for 1 year when I was 20 just to get on a placement, where I showed enough aptitude in programming to get taken on permanently. That year was awful, being taught by professors who knew less than me, and would only teach COBOL as "that's what you'll be using for your entire career" My partner is the most intelligent woman i've met, and she's very senior at a decent Uni in E…

It's funny how much has changed. Today, we are learning python and Java because python and Java are all you will ever need.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#92

Post by sklogic »

Thriptic wrote: post #88
sklogic wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because that "disgusting and lowly category" is the dominant demographic of users; get off your high horse. If so, this world is doomed, and within a generation will be ruled by hordes of ignorant retards. I can only hope you're exaggerating (well, I know you're exaggerating, the universities that matter still do vet their intake relatively rigorously). > Student loan debt is some of the hardest to escape debt in t…

> If so, this world is doomed, and within a generation will be ruled by hordes of ignorant retards. I can only hope you're exaggerating (well, I know you're exaggerating, the universities that matter still do vet their intake relatively rigorously). By very definition most people go to universities or institutions that "don't matter" in your eyes. You can't rule out the majority of the population in a discussion abou…

> By very definition most people go to universities or institutions that "don't matter" in your eyes.

Most of the so called "universities" are nothing but a cargo cult education. They're only damaging their students. This insanity must stop.

> You can't rule out the majority of the population in a discussion about the nature of higher education just because it doesn't fit your narrative about what college should be.

I can. If the majority is a counterfeit product it can be simply ignored. Only the genuine education matters.

> trying hard because they are deeply passionate about learning is absolutely ridiculous

They're 20 years old. Of course only a minority is passionate about learning. But at least there is a majority who consciously understand the reason they're doing it (and no, the reason is not a degree).

> but in the US employers want to see proof

I thought we're not discussing Mordor in this thread. Mordor experience is irrelevant.

> Putting someone through a 4 year arbitrary filter is a ridiculous practice which should stop

Invent a better filter then.

> Making someone rack up 80-120K in additional student debt

Once again, we're not discussing Mordor here.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#93

Post by sklogic »

geofft wrote: post #89
sklogic wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, I refuse to buy lottery tickets. "Who Dares Wins" Like it or not, but there are no guaranteed outcomes in pretty much anything. Only when you're paying for a lunch in a caffe it's sort of guaranteed that you'll get your calories. When you're paying for tuition you're only getting a chance to learn something, and now it's entirely up to you to use this chance (and still fail even by trying as hard as you can). >…

> Like it or not, but there are no guaranteed outcomes in pretty much anything. Yes, but there's such a thing as better odds and worse odds. These students aren't paying for a guaranteed education, but they are paying for an honest effort. > But instead you did everything by the book, did your assignments, read your textbooks, attended your lectures Wow! I didn't know I did that! Some of my professors would be truly…

> better odds and worse odds

That's exactly why I said that it worth assessing your abilities first before going there.

> but they are paying for an honest effort

And they're getting it. Slacking the marking because they're now paying more is not an "honest effort", not even close. Honest effort is keeping the bar high enough and pushing them harder and harder.

> Wow! I didn't know I did that!

You (supposedly) did enough of this crap to get your degree. Which is, again, not even close to a point of going to a university.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#94

Post by sklogic »

relkor wrote: post #20
sklogic wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are not idiots. They are indeed. > If you pay half your annual income, you SHOULD expect to get some damn good service for your money. No. This is a blatant consumerism. It does not matter even a tiny bit how much do you pay - 1/2 of your income, 100x your income, whatever. > Schools should be free, Of course, in an ideal world. But we have to deal with what we have and to make sure it's not destroyed beyond a…

If we are paying for access to the infrastructure, then why are students boxed into many separate cells staffed by a human "teacher". If you admit the teacher unit is worthless, then why are they there? According to your business plan the tuition does not go to pay the teachers, so then where did these teachers (who have no role what so ever in your view of education) get funding. I want to know. If we were just payi…

Teachers time is a part of this infrastructure. They're paying for it, they're getting their share. How to use that time is 100% their responsibility.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#95

Post by aries1980 »

sklogic wrote: post #86
relkor wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to have missed the part of university where we were learning things not yet in published books . If you think that undergraduates are reaching the cutting edge of research as part of their reguarly scheduled syllabus, I don't know what to say to correct this impression. You seem to forget that not every university is Stanford, where there are true leading experts that students can engage with beyond the contex…

> I seem to have missed the part of university where we were learning things not yet in published books. You had an access to the teachers, who are all supposed to be active, well-connected, bleeding-edge researchers. You had a fair amount of their time allocated for you solely and more of that time for your class. Now, it was 100% your responsibility to extort all the bleeding edge knowledge from them, to loiter aro…

> You had a fair amount of their time allocated for you solely and more of that time for your class.

Talking (and not teaching) to 200 ppl over 2 hours is not time allocation to "me". That is something I could watch without the presence of the teacher. There is no added value in this case compared to any MOOC class.

University courses should follow the possibilities what technology has to offer and focus on really teaching. The rest can be watched at home.

> Now, it was 100% your responsibility to extort all the bleeding edge knowledge from them.

Yes, 18 yrs old kids have the power and character to chase and force teachers without a backfire. You might be such character, but not everyone is such persuasive as you, yet they can be a great scientist.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#96

Post by sklogic »

aries1980 wrote: post #95
sklogic wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I seem to have missed the part of university where we were learning things not yet in published books. You had an access to the teachers, who are all supposed to be active, well-connected, bleeding-edge researchers. You had a fair amount of their time allocated for you solely and more of that time for your class. Now, it was 100% your responsibility to extort all the bleeding edge knowledge from them, to loiter aro…

> You had a fair amount of their time allocated for you solely and more of that time for your class. Talking (and not teaching) to 200 ppl over 2 hours is not time allocation to "me". That is something I could watch without the presence of the teacher. There is no added value in this case compared to any MOOC class. University courses should follow the possibilities what technology has to offer and focus on really te…

> Talking (and not teaching) to 200 ppl over 2 hours is not time allocation to "me".

I'm not talking about the lectures (they're useless unless most of the time is spent on Q&A). There is always a certain amount of time teachers must spend with their students individually, upon request. Smart students use that time, the others may not even know they've got a right to harass their teachers occasionally.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#97

Post by aries1980 »

sklogic wrote: post #96
aries1980 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You had a fair amount of their time allocated for you solely and more of that time for your class. Talking (and not teaching) to 200 ppl over 2 hours is not time allocation to "me". That is something I could watch without the presence of the teacher. There is no added value in this case compared to any MOOC class. University courses should follow the possibilities what technology has to offer and focus on really te…

> Talking (and not teaching) to 200 ppl over 2 hours is not time allocation to "me". I'm not talking about the lectures (they're useless unless most of the time is spent on Q&A). There is always a certain amount of time teachers must spend with their students individually, upon request. Smart students use that time, the others may not even know they've got a right to harass their teachers occasionally.

> There is always a certain amount of time teachers must spend with their students

Not at my university, or at any university my friends attended. In many cases, you could just simply piss off the teachers asking tough questions or pointing to errors in their thinking.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#99

Post by Overtonwindow »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #12

There is a clear misalignment in the actual goals of the three core groups in universities: Administrators, Professors, Students. Administrators want to grow the school budget and increase prestige for themselves and the university. Professors want to do research and make an impact in their field, and to their peers. Students want to be able to get a job and have an interesting experience. In theory all three groups…

Excellent response. I went back to university for fun recently at a major research institution. I found that the administration wanted more money, and professors wanted to teach less and research more. Students bristled at the belief that a professors primary job is not to teach, but to research, while the administration continued to raise prices, and add pointless classes; do we REALLY need a 4 hour taught by a GTA lab twice a week on research methods in psychology?
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