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Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

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Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's all true. But they don't compel third parties to block the company's app.

That's when it's a US company if it's foreign it will end up on the US trade department sanction list which will blacklist them world wide not only in the US and will prevent any entity which operates in the US from doing any sort of business with them. There is nothing that a Brazilian judge can do to whatsapp other than to harm them financially cutting off 100m users even in a developing market sends a clear sign.

Two wrongs make a right?

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#92
post #80
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure you believe your country's laws are fair, just, constitutional, and parliamentary-approved. However, so do Thai people believe about their laws against insulting their King. Do you think Facebook should be in the business of censoring posts insulting the Thai King just because some judge there gives them a court order? I maintain that Facebook should, in general, ignore foreign court orders and just do what'…

If they want to do business there, sure. The alternative stands: get out of the country. You maintain that Facebook should, in general, follow your legal system. Do you believe that America and only America is "fair, just, constitutional, and parliamentary-approved"? That's basically American exceptionalism at its best.

So if the US wants info on users of a German app who have no servers or offices in the US it should just give it to them? Even if the offense they are suspected of is not illegal in Germany?

My point is that Brazil should follow legal procedures and have a American judge issue a supena. That's what a MLAT is for.

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's when it's a US company if it's foreign it will end up on the US trade department sanction list which will blacklist them world wide not only in the US and will prevent any entity which operates in the US from doing any sort of business with them. There is nothing that a Brazilian judge can do to whatsapp other than to harm them financially cutting off 100m users even in a developing market sends a clear sign.

Two wrongs make a right?

Where is the wrong here? When company does not cooperate you force it to do so by any means available to you.

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#95
post #59
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to me like it might be WhatsApp that's on a power trip. What would an American judge do if WhatsApp were to ignore a lawful subpoena?

But its not a lawful subpoena. What's app is a America n company, so it should only respond to American supoenas. Just as a American judge should not be able to order a Brazilian company to do anything before having it go though the Brazilian courts.

> What's app is a America n company, so it should only respond to American supoenas.

American exceptionalism and supremacy at work.

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's all true. But they don't compel third parties to block the company's app.

That's when it's a US company if it's foreign it will end up on the US trade department sanction list which will blacklist them world wide not only in the US and will prevent any entity which operates in the US from doing any sort of business with them. There is nothing that a Brazilian judge can do to whatsapp other than to harm them financially cutting off 100m users even in a developing market sends a clear sign.

Facebook has an office in Brazil. I don't really understand why they couldn't just levy financial penalties, since Facebook does actually have a business presence in the country.

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#98
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But its not a lawful subpoena. What's app is a America n company, so it should only respond to American supoenas. Just as a American judge should not be able to order a Brazilian company to do anything before having it go though the Brazilian courts.

> What's app is a America n company, so it should only respond to American supoenas. American exceptionalism and supremacy at work.

I am not American.

I expect it to work the other way around too. Brazilian companies should not respond to foreign subpoenas unless validated by Brazilian courts.

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why must WhatsApp comply with Brazilian laws? They have no offices there. " They don't. They only have to comply if they don't want to be blocked. "If I run, say, a porn site, hosted in the US, as a US company, is it my responsibility to prevent users in a country where pornography is illegal from using my site? Do I have any duty to comply with said country requesting the identity and viewing history of citizens li…

>If I run, say, a porn site, hosted in the US, as a US company, is it my responsibility to prevent users in a country where pornography is illegal from using my sit Actually you have in most cases as trade agreements and various treaties usually provide the framework to extend laws and regulations between countries. Gambling sites for example wether they are run from the UK, Malta or CAR explicitly block US users due…

(I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.)

Gambling sites are an interesting choice for making this point, because even for prominent cases like like FTP it is hardly a matter of international agreement. In fact, Antigua and Barbuda have previously successfully beaten the US in WTO courts over this very matter - prosecuting gambling site operators in other countries.

http://www.pokernewsdaily.com/u-s-could-face-world-trade-org...

"Two years later, the WTO ruled that the U.S. had violated international agreements on trade in services by prosecuting the operators of offshore internet gambling sites. The WTO rejected the U.S. stance that the restrictions were necessary to protect public morality and Antigua was subsequently awarded a settlement of $21 million from the U.S. as compensation."

Extradition is also by no means assured - Calvin Ayre is still quite comfortable up in Canada, despite the indictment and extradition requests.

UIGEA is also more of a problem for banking institutions. Online poker, for example, is not illegal in the US. The UIGEA is largely banking regulations, and these sites are explicitly blocking US users because they cannot interact with US banks.

We also have poker sites returning in several states, such as NJ, NV, etc.

But in general, these big international gambling sites don't deal with US players because financially it makes no sense, and many of them want to visit the US without getting arrested. It's not because they think they're going to get extradited on the next plane flight.

To bring it back around to the Brazil discussion, I doubt there's as much concern in the WhatsApp offices about not being able to visit Brazil.

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's when it's a US company if it's foreign it will end up on the US trade department sanction list which will blacklist them world wide not only in the US and will prevent any entity which operates in the US from doing any sort of business with them. There is nothing that a Brazilian judge can do to whatsapp other than to harm them financially cutting off 100m users even in a developing market sends a clear sign.

Facebook has an office in Brazil. I don't really understand why they couldn't just levy financial penalties, since Facebook does actually have a business presence in the country.

WhatsApp and Facebook are still separate legal entities as far as i know, the subpoena was issued to WhatsApp it didn't comply they've issued a court order to block it in order to compel it to comply. If a US company would not comply to a court order, a US judge can prevent the company from operating at all by freezing all of their assets and halting all of their operations.
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