Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 102 posts

Re: Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

#91

Post by Agustus »

mturmon wrote: post #83
tertius wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? We don't allow this in business, why should we allow this in the government? Think Steve Jobs asking a VP to show his reasons for obfuscating the reasons for sales figures reported over a period and then adjusted. VP: Sorry, that's confidential. In this situation, I'm paying the administrator (that person that governmental agencies are accountable to) to make sure those agencies aren't obfuscating their own reas…

That's not the correct analogy. The House has oversight to be sure money is not wasted, but not to monitor all dialogue between scientists. For a summary of what's going on, better than I can do here, see this letter from another member of the House science committee: http://democrats.science.house.gov/sites/democrats.science.h...

The letter does not help the situation:

* The letter says: "In your various demand letters you noted the scientific study in question was of some consequence, and could potentially have an effect on policy decisions. However it should be emphasized that the issue in question is a scientific research study, not a policy decision by a Federal agency. As such, this is not an area of delegated legislative authority by Congress to the Executive (unless you are proposing that Congress should somehow legislatively overrule peer-reviewed scientific findings.)*

First, Mr. Johnson, cutely tries to defer that science is not going to be used in a policy manner. Right now, the President of the United States is engaged with making policy decisions from scientific studies, so his premise is flawed to begin with. Also, all of the pushes for climate change agendas feed from scientific studies.

Second, pointing to the delegation of authority and making a cute reference to legislating peer-reviewed scientific findings is a nod to The Daily Show crowd's jokester attitude.

Third, the last line from the paragraph says that "you have not articulated a legitimate need for anything beyond what NOAA has already provided" plays into my argument from before about a government agency obfuscating.

One could argue that the obfuscation is to hold a checks and balance, but then why is a legislature member worried about what the executive branch is doing? The executive branch should be defining what it will fulfill in FOIA requests and why.

Also, the entire letter points to my earlier discussion that while one can have the data, the models, and the methodologies, the reasoning behind the change appears to be left off and NOAA is not helping the concern with the agency when it does not come out with this. Even if they came right out and said, look, we used an incorrect number of significant digits, that is why our models appeared misleading before, it would be a quick story, make the rounds on skeptic sites, and then could move forward. So, why obfuscate?

Re: Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

#92

Post by ceejayoz »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #86
ceejayoz wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who cares what they think? They're one of the biggest holes in the conspiracy theory. State-level actors with much to gain by proving it to be a fake, the technology and know-how to do so, and nothing much to lose by revealing it. > Russia isn't a trustworthy nation and the US could have have a quid-pro-quo with them... In the height of the Cold War? Not bloody likely. > Their position would be more rational if the…

I think there were more than a few backroom deals regarding the space program back then. Soyuz 1 for example: an NSA analyst, identified in the book as Perry Fellwock, described overhearing Komarov tell ground control officials he knew he was about to die. Fellwock described how Soviet premier Alexei Kosygin called on a video phone to tell him he was a hero. Komarov's wife was also on the call to talk about what to s…

http://io9.com/5791437/what-really-happened-to-cosmonaut-vla...

> Komarov never told ground control that "he knew he was about to die." In fact, while he was in orbit, there was a decent chance that he would get back home alive. And by the way, there was no "video phone" in 1967. And also, Kosygin had nothing to do with this space mission and never spoke to Komarov.

Re: Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

#93

Post by dragonwriter »

Agustus wrote: post #91
mturmon wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the correct analogy. The House has oversight to be sure money is not wasted, but not to monitor all dialogue between scientists. For a summary of what's going on, better than I can do here, see this letter from another member of the House science committee: http://democrats.science.house.gov/sites/democrats.science.h...

The letter does not help the situation: * The letter says: "In your various demand letters you noted the scientific study in question was of some consequence, and could potentially have an effect on policy decisions. However it should be emphasized that the issue in question is a scientific research study, not a policy decision by a Federal agency. As such, this is not an area of delegated legislative authority by Co…

> Second, pointing to the delegation of authority and making a cute reference to legislating peer-reviewed scientific findings is a nod to The Daily Show crowd's jokester attitude.

It seems to me it (like the next line you take issue with) is previewing the administration's arguments on whether the subpoena serves a legislative purpose should this dispute escalate to the point where Congress attempts to impose consequences and the Administration challenges that attempt in the courts.

Explaining one's position why a demand is outside of the requesters legal authority to demand is quite appropriate in a response to a demand.

Re: Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

#94

Post by drzaiusapelord »

ceejayoz wrote: post #92
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there were more than a few backroom deals regarding the space program back then. Soyuz 1 for example: an NSA analyst, identified in the book as Perry Fellwock, described overhearing Komarov tell ground control officials he knew he was about to die. Fellwock described how Soviet premier Alexei Kosygin called on a video phone to tell him he was a hero. Komarov's wife was also on the call to talk about what to s…

http://io9.com/5791437/what-really-happened-to-cosmonaut-vla... > Komarov never told ground control that "he knew he was about to die." In fact, while he was in orbit, there was a decent chance that he would get back home alive. And by the way, there was no "video phone" in 1967. And also, Kosygin had nothing to do with this space mission and never spoke to Komarov.

Your source is questionable and its the io9 editor's bias showing here. The reality is that we don't know for certain what happened, but considering we have the communication in Berlin and this book, it seems to me my side is closer to the truth than the questionable Soviet apologia io9 is pushing.

The video phone is irelevant and probably a misunderstanding via a translator. Clearly the NSA and berlin listeners would have no idea what was seen/heard outside of the spectrum they were able to tap.

Not too long ago people like you were denying the Nedelin catastrophe. I think there's a lot of coverups the Soviets pulled that are only coming to light in the past couple decades. Russia has a problem with openness and honesty with its space program. They pretty much ran it as a black ops, not telling other countries their launch schedules or programs. This was done as to make coverups easier. That guy died for nothing. The Soviets forced him on that thing and he knew he was a dead man.

Re: Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

#95

Post by clockworkelf »

NickHaflinger wrote: post #26

Has any of the conspiracy theorists ever considered pointing a laser at the moon to detect the retroreflectors that were left their by Apollo 11. http://www.lpi.usra.edu/lunar/missions/apollo/apollo_11/expe...

They were bouncing lasers off the moon since 1962, even before man supposedly set foot on the moon.

http://www.americanmoon.org/NationalGeographic/

Re: Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

#96

Post by coldpie »

Agustus wrote: post #89
coldpie wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sooner we do it, the impacts will be smaller and it will be cheaper. The longer we wait, the more pain we're in for. Politics don't change that fact. No one said it would be easy, but burying our heads in the sand isn't going to solve anything.

But what would we do, how are we going to tell China or India, sovereign nations whose people are emerging from abject poverty, to knock it off? These nations are on a year over year increase path that by 2030 will see them doubling their CO2 emissions. Are you willing to give them money and how much, what if they do not use it for appropriate actions? Are you willing to force them to change, how do you propose forci…

I don't know. I agree it's hard. But we need to stop allowing people who deny it's a problem to have positions of power. It's time to acknowledge that the problem exists and start finding solutions for it.

Re: Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

#98

Post by tertius »

coldpie wrote: post #96
Agustus wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what would we do, how are we going to tell China or India, sovereign nations whose people are emerging from abject poverty, to knock it off? These nations are on a year over year increase path that by 2030 will see them doubling their CO2 emissions. Are you willing to give them money and how much, what if they do not use it for appropriate actions? Are you willing to force them to change, how do you propose forci…

I don't know. I agree it's hard. But we need to stop allowing people who deny it's a problem to have positions of power. It's time to acknowledge that the problem exists and start finding solutions for it.

The way politics works in this case would then be to vote those out of office who challenge these changes.

The problem with this is that the populace won't because they are skeptical, for very good reasons.

They see models not working (i.e. alarmism backfired), they see IPCC authors leaving and denouncing authorship because they view the report as too alarmist. They see people warning of "we'll have the worst hurricane seasons ever in the next 5 years!" and then very little happening.

Alarmism has an unfortunate contribution to skepticism (while not the intended result of action) that will keep skeptics in power. And I think this is a good thing.

You advocate for people like Smith to not have positions of power. You should also look at people on the other end of the spectrum, alarmists, who have power and try to use it to incite action. That backfires and we move nowhere. Skepticism, as I mentioned before, is a natural reaction to this.

Change needs to come from both sides.

Re: Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

#99

Post by tertius »

creshal wrote: post #88
tertius wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? We don't allow this in business, why should we allow this in the government? Think Steve Jobs asking a VP to show his reasons for obfuscating the reasons for sales figures reported over a period and then adjusted. VP: Sorry, that's confidential. In this situation, I'm paying the administrator (that person that governmental agencies are accountable to) to make sure those agencies aren't obfuscating their own reas…

> Why? We don't allow this in business, why should we allow this in the government? Right. I keep forgetting that the USA have no concept of privacy and that everyone receiving a wage is treated like a part-time slave.

No, one's personal life is not subject to this.

Re: Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

#100

Post by tertius »

matheweis wrote: post #80
tertius wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they recorded the moonlanding on goatskin? All jokes aside, I see your point, but applying it to the moon landing is a little far fetched.

>> A Single page of goatskin might be months farmer wage. > I see your point, but applying it to the moon landing is a little far fetched. Not at all, in the 1970's those tapes easily cost a month's of an average workers wages. It would make perfect sense to re-use them to save a bit of money, especially if you were doing it at scale and didn't realize you were about to erase the master copies.

> especially if you were doing it at scale and didn't realize you were about to erase the master copies.

I agree with this.

Negligence of this level, though, is indescribable.

Post reply on HN