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Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

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Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#91

Post by borism »

narag wrote: post #74
astine wrote: post #10

This article is largely based on the claims of Bartolome de Las Casas, an activist from the time of Conquistadors. Some scholars believe thathe wildly exaggerated the crimes in order to convince the Spanish and other governments to intervene.

Has anyone travelled to both Spain and Latin America? Spaniards are white. Latins have on average a mixed colour. So it's clear that extermination did not take place... there.

What should I make of the fact they're mixed color?

Extermination didn't take place, but rape did?

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#92

Post by maxwell »

cglee wrote: post #70
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #24

I made it about halfway this through before bailing. Yet another "western civilization is so bad" articles. Ho hum. The problem here is, as mattmaroon put it, if you buy into this logic we'd all still be chasing down antelopes on the savannah. At some point some civilizations, for whatever reason, start developing things like private property, the wheel, common law, reading, the printing press, etc. It's become fashi…

> Some cultures are demonstrably better than others, like it or not. I'm having a really hard time swallowing this one. If people value different things, how can you even make such an argument?

It's just a meaningless expression. If you want to compare 2 classes, you have to define the comparison method.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#93

Post by riffraff »

vinutheraj wrote: post #22
bokonist wrote: post #3

Question to HN readers who are sympathetic with this article: If you could wave a magic wand and "undo" all that was done, would you do so? So imagine all those who perished in the 1500's would be revived from the dead and restored to their ancestral lands, all those living in the Americas now would be sent back to England, Ireland, China, etc, with a one way ticket and $10K in cash to start a new life. Would you wav…

I think our moral viewpoint has changed over time ! When we were in tribes killing animals, that was deemed necessary at that point of time, because of all the benefits of animal food and the shelter provided by the animal skin. Then we moved into killing other humans, to gain control of their resources, because it was either them or us. I think it was correct from their viewpoint what they did. It's unfair to judge…

one of the most interesting moments of my 2009 was listening to a guy showing off this http://tafkav.blogspot.com/ and talking about how we do not still consider plants (and computers!) as having rights (cfr. "Should Trees Have Standings?").

This seems completely unreasonable to us but the same was true between e.g. people and animals, europeans and native americans, japanese and chinese (see the nanking massacre).

The "evolution of empathy" is probably still an ongoing process for which our descendants will consider us barbarians.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#94

Post by hristov »

bokonist wrote: post #3

Question to HN readers who are sympathetic with this article: If you could wave a magic wand and "undo" all that was done, would you do so? So imagine all those who perished in the 1500's would be revived from the dead and restored to their ancestral lands, all those living in the Americas now would be sent back to England, Ireland, China, etc, with a one way ticket and $10K in cash to start a new life. Would you wav…

This is a false dichotomy. It would have been quite possible to have had peaceful coexistence with the natives, and to slowly assimilate the natives into American society. In fact on a smaller scale that actually happened in a lot of places. Many early settlements had natives living and trading and working in there on a more or less equal footing as whites. In fact it would have been probably more beneficial economically for the early settlements to assimilate the natives rather than wipe them out, because the biggest problem for early settlements was lack of people.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#95

Post by maxwell »

_h4xr wrote: post #2

I recommend getting over it. You are almost certainly the descendants murderers and conquerors. http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=7819&... That's just how humans roll. Western Europe had lots of problems, but countries that operate in the European tradition are better places to live. (At least, when you look at the immigration patterns between third-world and first-world countries, it's clear that fi…

> Western Europe had lots of problems, but countries that operate in the European tradition are better places to live.

But what suggests "places that operate in the European tradition" will remain better (i.e. what traits of Euro civilization are optimal given any group of humans)? What makes this expression any more meaningful than something like, "C had lots of problems, but languages in the C-family are better to work with"?

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#96

Post by Psyonic »

pyre wrote: post #42
baxident wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Europeans had already developed the idea of private property, then why did we find it necessary to take the land of these ingenious populations?

He's ignoring the point that 'rule of law' didn't exist in the Americas. Maybe private property and rule of law existed in Europe and made for a better society there, but the conquistadors that came to the Americas acted like the rule of law was "whatever I want to do, I get to do." Ideas like private property don't excuse things like slavery and murder. You can't say, "I claim this piece of land for my own. Oh, look…

"I claim this piece of land for my own. Oh, look! There are people living on it already. I guess I get to enslave, rape, torture them."

Actually, you can say EXACTLY that. The very idea of private property is founded on that principle. When whoever it was originally decided some plot of land belonged to him, that's precisely what he said. All I would add to that statement is the clause, "Or they can get the hell out."

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#97

Post by dschobel »

maxwell wrote: post #73
dschobel wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just how humans roll. Precisely. History is littered with examples of the imperialistic tendencies of man (if you want to see some grade-A imperialism, look into how the Aztecs built their empire, hint: it wasn't by having lots of babies).

Appeal to history. Just because a lot of source code is littered with GOTOs doesn't mean that approach is "how hackers roll." Imperialism's just a phase; it's already generally considered harmful.

The discussion at hand is about history of imperialism so 'appealing to history' shouldn't be that surprising.

Also, I'm curious, how are things in your post-imperialist future? Is everything lovely?

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#98

Post by billswift »

Tichy wrote: post #75
IsaacSchlueter wrote: post #38

This article, and many of the comments here, hint at a deeper and more interesting phenomenon: the need to have things be either all good or all bad. That is, either (A) western civilization is good, and the things it has done were good, and the things it values are good values, etc., or (B) it's bad, and the things it has done were bad, and the things it values are bad values, etc. Once this dichotomy is accepted, a…

Sou you think being all but exterminated was for the better of the native Americans? Maybe you are trying to argue for something good, but dead people are dead. They don't benefit from a civilization that emerged a couple of decades later.

And they would be dead now even if no one had killed them back then. And those that killed them are all dead now. And no doubt more Amerindians were killed by other Amerindians over the centuries than ever had any contact at all with Europeans.

This is like all the whining about slavery. Slavery has been one of the most widespread practices in the world. Europeans were the ones who have come closest to putting a stop to it. And in fact it is only European derived morality that makes slavery and genocide wrong.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#99

Post by maxwell »

dschobel wrote: post #97
maxwell wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Appeal to history. Just because a lot of source code is littered with GOTOs doesn't mean that approach is "how hackers roll." Imperialism's just a phase; it's already generally considered harmful.

The discussion at hand is about history of imperialism so 'appealing to history' shouldn't be that surprising. Also, I'm curious, how are things in your post-imperialist future? Is everything lovely?

It's not surprising, but it's still a fallacy. And civilization without imperialism will probably be about as "lovely" as code without GOTOs.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#100

Post by [deleted] »

IsaacSchlueter wrote: post #38

This article, and many of the comments here, hint at a deeper and more interesting phenomenon: the need to have things be either all good or all bad. That is, either (A) western civilization is good, and the things it has done were good, and the things it values are good values, etc., or (B) it's bad, and the things it has done were bad, and the things it values are bad values, etc. Once this dichotomy is accepted, a…

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