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Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

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Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#91
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found this link interesting. Under this "Common Core" curriculum, apparently, students are trained to read 5x3 as "five groups of three" which is why 3+3+3+3+3 is right and 5+5+5 is wrong. http://www.businessinsider.com/why-55515-is-wrong-under-the-... It's hilarious because I read 5x3 as "5, 3 times". Anyhow, just goes to show Maths teachers have now been replaced by box tickers who refuse to apply their brain. In…

How do you not read it "5 times 3"? Why would you re-arrange where the "times" is?

Because where I come from, we use the English equivalent of "into" rather than "times". "5 into 3" roughly translates to "5, 3 times".

The meta-point here is that English (or any other language) is crap for math, which is why we use mathematical notation. And this bullcrap syllabus is trying to redefine the "x" operator, which gets my goat.

Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#92

I hope this kid goes to school and tells the teacher that they were just using the Peano axioms of arithmetic. x * 0 = 0 x * S(y) = x + (x * y) So the original 5 * 3 would be 5 * S(2) = 5 + 5 * 2 = 5 + 5 + 5 * 1 = 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 * 0 = 5 + 5 + 5 + 0 = 5 + 5 + 5

  1 * n = n
  m * n = (m-1) * n + n

Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#93
There are a number of issues with this explanation.

Firstly, as we know, multiplication and addition are associative, which means if you ever teach a child that 5 x 3 is different to 3 x 5, you are imparting wrong information.

The issue is that the question asks the child to "use the repeated addition strategy to solve: 5x3". The reason this is a problem is because "repeated addition" is indeed a strategy to teach children the concept that if you take a multiple of some number the. It is like repeatedly adding that number of items, a number of times. It is used as a stepping stone towards fully understanding multiplication,after on, and takes into account that young children think I terms of what they see. So for example, they see that a dog has 4 legs, and if you have 3 dogs then you add the four legs together three times (one for each dog).

Notice that it's madness to teach this as a. "addition strategy", because at that age "strategy" is far too abstract a concept for most children to grasp. The irony is that teachers then attempt to teach using a technique that uses a low level of abstraction, but when they call it the "addition strategy" they have just attempted to teach this technique that is using a more concrete methodology via language that uses concepts that are arguably more abstract than the concept they are attempting to teach!

You can see that the whole point of that technique is missed completely on that exam because of the question being asked. In fact, to have a student demonstrate understanding the I fact the question should be "I have five jars of Jellybeans. Each jar has 3 Jellybeans in them. Show me how you would represent the number of jars times by the number of Jellybeans in each jar, using addition."

You see, the point of the strategy is entirely being missed here. The author protests that the child will get confused because if they rely on the law of association with subtraction and division they will get the answer wrong, and be confused. But that's not what is happening. The child has clearly understood that actually, 3+3+3+3+3 is the same as 5+5+5. In actual fact, the student has shown a clear understanding of multiplication via addition.

If you think that child will be confused, wait till they get to fractions and numbers with decimal places! Because at that point, you can't use addition to explain multiplication and then you need to explain multiplication in terms of scale. There's actually a case to answer that the entire technique of teaching multiplication via addition is fundamentally flawed and it's better to teach in terms of scale anyway. I don't subscribe to that view, but I can see why it might be held.

I have to also take issue with using the definition from what looks like the Cambridge Dictionary's noun definition is that this is NOT the same precise meaning as equivalence in mathematics. In fact, if you were to use first-order logic, then it would be:

iff 5x3=15 then 5+5+5=15

or,

(5x3=15) ≡ (5+5+5=15)

That satisfies the two expressions logical equivalence. So the statement that this is NOT logically equivalent is entirely wrong.

Furthermore, the author has not read the definition on Wikipedia carefully enough. It says:

The multiplication of two whole numbers is equivalent to adding as many copies of one of them, as the value of the other one

The assumption being made here is that Wikipedia is saying that the number that is to be added up multiple times is the leftmost number in the expression, but it does not in fact say this at all. It says to add "as many copies of one of them", which means it could be referring to the left or right hand value in the multiplication expression.

The common core and the techniques used to teach young children are solid. Unfortunately, it looks like the way they have been used and taught to educators is the problem here! The fact that you can see the framework leaking into a test question shows that there is a fundamental flaw in the pedagogy of whoever is teaching that class.

Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#94
post #34
post #5

What a defense of nonsense. The marking punishes a student for achieving a correct answer in an appropriate way, regardless of pedagogical justification.

"Use the repeated addition strategy..." Critics of this are missing that the teacher is not asking the student to find the correct result. Instead, the teacher is asking the student to apply a specific algorithm. If the teacher asks to apply Merge Sort to a list, but the student applies Insertion Sort, both strategies will result in the same sorted list. But only one will demonstrate what the teacher asked the studen…

I don't think "merge sort vs. insertion sort" is a good analogy in this case. This seems more like the teacher is deducting points because of a wrong indentation or brace style.

Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#95
post #88
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>a difference between counting "x sets of y" and "y sets of x". You're making the same mistake as the blog writer by overlaying a difference between "x" and "y" that was not on the test. The child did do the repeated addition strategy. It's just that the child's "shape" of the addition didn't exactly match the teacher's. If the point of the problem was the "repeated addition" instead of the final answer "15" , the ch…

The objective and obvious difference between the 5 and the 3 is that the 5 is first and the 3 is second. The point is that because the 5 is first, as everyone can see, it has a specific job in the repeated addition technique. (The bananas and bundles just illustrates an example for why, in another context, being first or second would be important. But on the test, 5 is still first.) On the other hand, you are invokin…

> The point is that because the 5 is first, as everyone can see, it has a specific job in the repeated addition technique.

Um, this is sophistry. The question asked for "5 x 3" using repeated addition. The x is a very well defined mathematical operator and "repeated addition" has a very well-defined meaning, and the child has demonstrated it by repeatedly adding 5 three times.

Yes, the child's cardinal sin is he Did Not Do As He Was Taught(tm), but seriously, that's more the teacher's and the school board's problem in my book, not the child's.

Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#96
post #90

This seems like a far-fetched justification. What's more likely? 1. The teacher understands (and is expecting 9 year olds to learn) the pedantic difference between equivalence and equality. Keep in mind, this being elementary school, the teacher likely is a generalist and also teaches reading, science, and social studies. OR 2. The teacher has a very rigid grading guide that specifies how much credit is given for any…

If "He/she may even agree that it's ridiculous to deduct a point", then don't deduct it.

And get in trouble for not applying the government-mandated grading guide fairly to all students?

Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#97
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When are practising skills in school, sometimes we practice creativity and sometimes we practice techniques. Both are useful, and it's clear which is which. Secondly, a student that knows the difference between different techniques and can call them up at will (such as the difference between 5 sets of 3 and 3 sets of 5) is better off than a student that only knows how to produce a particular answer for a particular q…

A student that sees a multiplication sign and reads it as "sets of" is not better off than one who reads it as multiplication.

Maybe, maybe not; I'm not sure.

But I am sure that a student who understands and can apply a specific process when required as well as produce a correct result is better off than one who can only produce a correct result.

Obviously I don't think that all of school should be rote application of techniques. But I've found that when you want to make sure your students have learned a specific technique, you sometimes have to create a somewhat artificial request. Have you taught enough to have found otherwise?

Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#98
post #53

Multiplication is commutative. I don't care if you can rewrite the definition on wikipedia, this is a fundamental truth of math. Far more important than your semantic nonsense.

But the students aren't supposed to know that yet. That's literally two topics later in the Common Core Standard, so they won't learn that for another day or two. Smh. http://www.corestandards.org/Math/Content/3/OA/

Punishing students who are ahead is an excellent way to make all students equally disinterested. (Oh, but not equivalently disinterested.)

The question is whether the student knows about commutativity of multiplication or if he/she didn't understand what was taught or made a mistake.

Personally, I think the problem here is that math is taught as processes rather than as concepts.

Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#99
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A student that sees a multiplication sign and reads it as "sets of" is not better off than one who reads it as multiplication.

Maybe, maybe not; I'm not sure. But I am sure that a student who understands and can apply a specific process when required as well as produce a correct result is better off than one who can only produce a correct result. Obviously I don't think that all of school should be rote application of techniques. But I've found that when you want to make sure your students have learned a specific technique, you sometimes hav…

Nope, I'm not a teacher.

(I tutored math in college and did have the experience of helping people understand math...)

Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#100
post #88
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>a difference between counting "x sets of y" and "y sets of x". You're making the same mistake as the blog writer by overlaying a difference between "x" and "y" that was not on the test. The child did do the repeated addition strategy. It's just that the child's "shape" of the addition didn't exactly match the teacher's. If the point of the problem was the "repeated addition" instead of the final answer "15" , the ch…

The objective and obvious difference between the 5 and the 3 is that the 5 is first and the 3 is second. The point is that because the 5 is first, as everyone can see, it has a specific job in the repeated addition technique. (The bananas and bundles just illustrates an example for why, in another context, being first or second would be important. But on the test, 5 is still first.) On the other hand, you are invokin…

>The point is that because the 5 is first, as everyone can see, it has a specific job in the repeated addition technique.

If you(royal-you) insist that the 5 being the first factor has a specific job and you teach such nonsense to a child, it means you're not teaching actual mathematics.

In _real_ math, the factors/mutiplicands have no notion of ordinal rank such as "first" or "second" or "specific jobs". Even if the child was not formerly taught The Commutative Law, it's not impossible for him to see multiplication tables[1]. (In fact, many are hung as big posters in elementary classrooms.) Any child with pattern recognition abilities beyond a chimpanzee would notice that the cells of XY have the same answer as YX. He/she would ask mom/dad/teacher "is xy always same as yx?".

In the world of _pseudo_ math that stresses bizarre hoop jumping, we overlay non-mathematical concepts such as "specific job" to factors. Maybe this skill is important and transferable to the enlisted man to make sure he makes his bed before cleaning his machine gun instead of the other way around so everyone in the squad doesn't get punished with 50 pushups. But don't pass it off as "teaching math."

[1]https://www.google.com/search?q=multiplication+table&es_sm=9...

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