Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#91

Post by AlexandrB » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 2:02 PM UTC

snitko wrote: post #85

AlexandrB wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Corruption at all levels of government is rampant in Russia. It's the norm to have to pay off multiple officials when trying to get something built/renovated. Russia doesn't give a fuck about its own people, to the Russian government lives are expendable if needed [1]. The alcoholism and suicide rate in Russia is monstrous [2], and is probably caused by the lack of opportun…

> Corruption at all levels of government is rampant in Russia I'm not concerned with corruption. It's a different side of coin. What happens in the US or in Europe is that if you need stuff done or if you need to win in court, you hire expensive lobbyists or lawyers. Either way, you spend money. It is practically the same, but legalized, so that you can say "oh, but this is civil". No it's not. It's still a governmen…

> What happens in the US or in Europe is that if you need stuff done or if you need to win in court, you hire expensive lobbyists or lawyers.

Lobbyists and Lawyers are private individuals, corrupt officials are government agents. I thought you were against "big government"?

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#92

Post by lambdadmitry » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 2:04 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #40

yc1010 wrote: post #12

I was born in the Soviet Union during its dying years back then everyone knew the system was corrupt, inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart. I still remember having to queue hours to get bread from bakery, and not seeing toilet paper, milk or meat for some time... Anyone who wants to go back to those days is insane imho :( My parents and older generation of relatives mostly wat…

I have an inverse story from yours. I'm a citizen and former resident of the UK, the UK for many reasons has a very loving relationship to the US, our young people are fashioned by the image of Television, and more than half of all English speaking entertaining media is american. We like America/Americans, by default before we learn politics. I travelled to the US in 2013, and to Russia the same year. What I saw was…

May I add yet another story to this thread?

I was a member of municipal polling board during last Putin's election. Honestly I did my best to prevent fraud, and yet the voting protocol (a paper where all ballots are summed up, it goes to an higher-level board) was rewritten right under my nose (+25% to a leading candidate, guess which one), with police covering it up. I tried to warn a friendly member of higher-level board, just to learn that all independent members of the board were escorted out of building by our SWAT analogue.

Voting and vote counting were all recorded on much-hyped state-wise CCTV system, so I thought "right, I'll go to a public prosecutor, they will retrieve the record and the fraud would be obvious". Guess what — there were no interest at all, my complaint was routed into the same higher-level board.

It wasn't an isolated event. In fact, the huge part of polling boards in Saint-Petersburg had their protocols rewritten. It was widely publicized in a local independent press, but all court cases were ultimately lost and no one were held accountable. Similar stories took place in other Russian cities.

This was a huge, centrally orchestrated fraud, with those in power getting away with it (as always). Voting is an institute of critical importance to any liberal democracy out there, and it is completely and systematically destroyed by Putin and his team. I can't see how on Earth the country where it's normal can be even compared to US; it's like comparing North Korea and US with a straight face.

And yes, given that it's HN, let me also mention that all cellular and Internet operators in Russia are legally and openly obliged to pay for wiretapping equipment and install it with no regulatory oversight on how it's used. It's so amusing when people somehow combine any degree of support for Snowden AND for Russian government.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#93

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 2:06 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #40

yc1010 wrote: post #12

I was born in the Soviet Union during its dying years back then everyone knew the system was corrupt, inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart. I still remember having to queue hours to get bread from bakery, and not seeing toilet paper, milk or meat for some time... Anyone who wants to go back to those days is insane imho :( My parents and older generation of relatives mostly wat…

I have an inverse story from yours. I'm a citizen and former resident of the UK, the UK for many reasons has a very loving relationship to the US, our young people are fashioned by the image of Television, and more than half of all English speaking entertaining media is american. We like America/Americans, by default before we learn politics. I travelled to the US in 2013, and to Russia the same year. What I saw was…

[deleted]

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#94

Post by snitko » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 2:07 PM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #91

snitko wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Corruption at all levels of government is rampant in Russia I'm not concerned with corruption. It's a different side of coin. What happens in the US or in Europe is that if you need stuff done or if you need to win in court, you hire expensive lobbyists or lawyers. Either way, you spend money. It is practically the same, but legalized, so that you can say "oh, but this is civil". No it's not. It's still a governmen…

> What happens in the US or in Europe is that if you need stuff done or if you need to win in court, you hire expensive lobbyists or lawyers. Lobbyists and Lawyers are private individuals, corrupt officials are government agents. I thought you were against "big government"?

I am. Lobbyists and lawyers only exist because there is a government monopoly on law.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#95

Post by 3princip » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 2:10 PM UTC

yc1010 wrote: post #83

3princip wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's fine if you call out Russia on principle, as long as that principle applies to the US as well. But you seem to suggest that the US is a nicer place to live, so it's fine that they've waged aggressive wars all over the globe for more than half a century?

Seem to suggest? SEEM TO SUGGEST! fuuuuu.... Look my grandparents died a few years ago in a small tiny village by the Volga, once you travel outside of Moscow and Leningrad(StPetersburg nowadays) you may as well be time travelling into the past. The place had no paved roads leading to it had to travel couple of says on grotty trains to get there. The farming being done is subsistence with remnants of old Soviet coop…

My reply was ambiguous. The point was that you seem to be suggesting the US is always right because it's a nicer place to live, or that Russia is wrong because it is not such a nice place to live.

I lived in the West for a long time and returned with my children to eastern Europe. Sure it's poorer and less developed and plagued with problems. There are many frustrating things, but to categorically suggest it is impossible to live there (or Russia I guess) would be an insult to everyone who does.

You've found your happiness in Europe and that's great.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#96

Post by 3princip » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 2:16 PM UTC

ajuc wrote: post #90

3princip wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's fine if you call out Russia on principle, as long as that principle applies to the US as well. But you seem to suggest that the US is a nicer place to live, so it's fine that they've waged aggressive wars all over the globe for more than half a century?

Can a 3rd party call Russia out on something if USA do it too, or should we all shut up? Because right now the discussion looks like this: - Help! This thieve has stolen my bag! - Shut up, others do it all the time.

I am in no way suggesting people should not express their opinions.

I'd like to know whether those opinions are formed as a result of propaganda. In this case, whether any anti-russian opinions are out of principle (e.g. pacifist principles) or on the basis of consumed propaganda.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#97

Post by snitko » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 2:20 PM UTC

johnnydoebk wrote: post #80

snitko wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While all you are saying is true, I also think the very same kind of propaganda, but actually much more efficient, is happening in Europe and the US. People go absolutely insane if you start questioning democracy, social programs or anything that a state does. When you point out to them how internet or cellphone networks or taxis or a number of other things is actually cheaper in Russia (or in eastern Europe in gener…

>> When you point out to them how internet or cellphone networks or taxis or a number of other things is actually cheaper in Russia (or in eastern Europe in general) because of the lack of regulations or government interference, they go in denial. Cool. I'm from a small 3rd world country. Just as in Russia the police officers sometimes rape detainees with bottles of champagne, there is literally no justice, but lots…

I think countries have problems because of governments, not because their governments aren't strong enough. Paying more to police officers doesn't make them behave any more civil. An example of that is the US where police abuse is widespread and incarceration rate is highest in the world. Statistically, in terms of police interaction, I'd be much safer in your country than in the US.

The real problem is absence of the market mechanism in law enforcement. A police officer, even though I basically am paying his salary, isn't working for me. He's working for the state. I can't hire another protection service and stop paying to the police. I can't complain. Hell, I can't even change laws that I don't like (except through a very long political process which is unlikely to give me any results in any meaningful timeframe).

What you should be thinking is, not how to make a government better, but how to make it less dangerous and influential.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#98

Post by datalist » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 2:25 PM UTC

lambdadmitry wrote: post #92

dijit wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an inverse story from yours. I'm a citizen and former resident of the UK, the UK for many reasons has a very loving relationship to the US, our young people are fashioned by the image of Television, and more than half of all English speaking entertaining media is american. We like America/Americans, by default before we learn politics. I travelled to the US in 2013, and to Russia the same year. What I saw was…

May I add yet another story to this thread? I was a member of municipal polling board during last Putin's election. Honestly I did my best to prevent fraud, and yet the voting protocol (a paper where all ballots are summed up, it goes to an higher-level board) was rewritten right under my nose (+25% to a leading candidate, guess which one), with police covering it up. I tried to warn a friendly member of higher-level…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_election_vo...

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#99

Post by vbezhenar » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 2:34 PM UTC

Avalaxy wrote: post #88

vbezhenar wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? Those sites are available from Russia, as far as I know.

http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/27/9210475/russia-wikipedia-b... http://uk.businessinsider.com/russia-bans-reddit-2015-8?r=US... http://techcrunch.com/2014/12/03/github-russia/

I'm not sure about reddit, but wikipedia and github are not banned currently. Internet censorship is worrying and might eventually ban an important sites, but not yet.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#100

Post by 3princip » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 2:48 PM UTC

lambdadmitry wrote: post #92

dijit wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an inverse story from yours. I'm a citizen and former resident of the UK, the UK for many reasons has a very loving relationship to the US, our young people are fashioned by the image of Television, and more than half of all English speaking entertaining media is american. We like America/Americans, by default before we learn politics. I travelled to the US in 2013, and to Russia the same year. What I saw was…

May I add yet another story to this thread? I was a member of municipal polling board during last Putin's election. Honestly I did my best to prevent fraud, and yet the voting protocol (a paper where all ballots are summed up, it goes to an higher-level board) was rewritten right under my nose (+25% to a leading candidate, guess which one), with police covering it up. I tried to warn a friendly member of higher-level…

This is very suspect and very hard to believe. I've been on polling boards in a much (much) smaller country, and it would be logistically impossible to carry out fraud on that scale (25%) without it being widely documented.

The suggestion that there are enough police (including SWAT none the less) to watch over tens of thousands of polling stations and enforce this is even stranger. And this is from a miniscule country compared to Russia (size mentioned because of the logistics challenge of such an endeavour). There were such stories in my country as well, previously, but were generally propaganda from the opposition at the time.