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What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

nytimes.com

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Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#91

Post by zamalek »

hueving wrote: post #45
justinsaccount wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep.. Read the comments on stories like this http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/08/09/tar... Target tries to make one step in the right direction (like making sure a chemistry set is not labeled as a BOYS chemistry set) and people respond with: "You liberal POS idiots are ruining this Country. Just because you morons don't want to think there are boys and girls, doesn't mean the rest of us with a brai…

A horrifying reminder of the capability for critical thought of the general population! This is to be expected though. Removing gender associations is going to be seen as an attack on existing peoples' upbringings. Anything that falls into that category is going to be a painful fight.

There's an effect I forget the name of. Basically, if you give someone something and then some time later take it away they experience anger.

When you give rights to one group, you have to remove them from another (important: even if the second group had rights that were not rightfully theirs).

Men previously and incorrectly had exclusive access to jobs (and votes, and so forth). By giving women fair chance to those rights, you have to subtract the unjust portion of men's rights. I don't know why some (most? unlikely) of us can accept the truth, that those rights were never only ours, but as for the rest they experience anger. Just another way that equality is a hard fight: we're fighting a documented psychological effect.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#92

Post by rileymat1 »

jonesb6 wrote: post #75
rewqfdsa wrote: post #48

This gem is in the comments: > The average programmer spends only about 30 percent of his/her time working alone. That's nowhere close to my figure. In fact, I can pretty much _only_ program alone. Individual investigation and discovery is most of the fun in the field.

Not trying to create a positive feedback loop here, but I concur. My personal experience could point to as much as 95% of "programming" time being entirely independent once taken into account: reading articles/guides/tutorials, debugging, "playing around with" new tools/languages/frameworks.

I suspect that it varies by environment. I have worked in environments where it is 95% alone and other environments where it is 95% collaboration. Some places actually do "pair programming".

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#93

Post by maus42 »

>Over and over, Dr. Cheryan and her colleagues have found that female students are more interested in enrolling in a computer class if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art and nature posters, coffee makers, plants and general-interest magazines.

Art and nature posters, plants and general-interest magazines do not sound neutral to me.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#94

Post by dclowd9901 »

nmrm2 wrote: post #72
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how this is bait and switch. I am a programmer and I cant't stand star wars or the vast majority of science fiction. Neither do I enjoy running around with geeky tshirts. You do not have to be nerdy to enjoy working with computers.

I think the parent was complaining that things which definitely have nothing to do with STEM fields (sci-fi and star wars) were interspersed with things that are germanely related (computer parts and tech magazines). You wouldn't fault an anatomy course for having skeletons in the room or a Physics classroom for having copies of Science laying around, so the parent argues that it's also weird to tell technology educa…

> things which definitely have nothing to do with STEM fields (sci-fi and star wars)

I respectfully disagree wholeheartedly. Many enter these industries because of their love for sci-fi. You'd be hard-pressed to find a Space X or NASA employee who wouldn't attribute at least some of their aspiration to the creations of Carl Sagan or Gene Rodenberry.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#95

Post by douche »

mwhuang2 wrote: post #70
Mz wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet, it appears that you will assume that we will assume that you are male. Why? Because you are on HN? Is this not buying into gender stereotypes? (I am a woman. I am sometimes referred to as "he" on HN. I am quite open about my gender and it is specified in my profile. But the default assumption here is that anyone talking must be male -- because tech. This is accepting a stereotype.)

I assumed people would infer my gender from the wording of my post.

At this point, it might be weirder for a grown woman to be a hardcore fan of my little pony.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#96

Post by dclowd9901 »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #81
dclowd9901 wrote: post #77

> Over and over, Dr. Cheryan and her colleagues have found that female students are more interested in enrolling in a computer class if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art and nature posters, coffee makers, plants and general-interest magazines. Sans the "general inter…

Let's suppose I worked at a desk next to yours, and one day, I brought in an elaborate lego Millennium Falcon to put next to my monitor. Would you support a policy that required me to remove this icon of geekdom in the name of making the workspace more welcoming for women?

I wouldn't require any sort of thing, but given a decor of clean lines, natural colors and greenery, I'd definitely question your aesthetics.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#97

Post by zamalek »

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #65
zamalek wrote: post #5

We've known this for a while, it boils down to: barbies. Fixing this problem is really, really hard. Assuming I gave my daughters equal access to both barbies and chemistry kits, which would they choose? Kids want to fit in with their friends. Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. What does that lead to? The child choosing their gender stereotype (applies both ways) so that they can fit in. It's what th…

Sewing kits, to me, sound kinda boring. Why not Lego for everyone? Lego is great! It stimulates creativity and you can do whatever you want with it. If you want to play with cars you can make em out of Lego. If you want to roleplay, you can make buildings and use the Lego minifigures! Doesn't that give you the best of both worlds? Heck, even if you're not interested in building your own stuff from scratch, a lot of s…

> Sewing kits, to me, sound kinda boring.

They do to me too! However the tech industry isn't the only industry with these problems, we just talk about them more. I bought up the nurse example because it's one I'm familiar with: I dated a nurse. By the time she graduated (around 2007 I think) her academic hospital had zero, as I recall - less than 2 to be safe, male nurses. I knew some civil engineers at college, out of their whole class: 2 women.

Every industry is experiencing it in both directions. It's more unfair to women as the higher-salary industries tend to be the male-dominated. However, if my son wanted to be a nurse I'd want him to be able to figure that out and then feel that it was completely normal.

This childhood self-discrimination is pervasive and needs to be fixed.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#98

Post by ascorbic »

jkyle wrote: post #16
zamalek wrote: post #5

We've known this for a while, it boils down to: barbies. Fixing this problem is really, really hard. Assuming I gave my daughters equal access to both barbies and chemistry kits, which would they choose? Kids want to fit in with their friends. Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. What does that lead to? The child choosing their gender stereotype (applies both ways) so that they can fit in. It's what th…

> Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. The key is to make it a priority to move to an area where all the families promote a culture that views academic excellence as a good thing. I know this isn't available to everyone due to financial limitations. But it's probably available to more than realize it.

No need for a [sic]. That is how the rest of the English-speaking world spells it.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#99

Post by majormajor »

gaius wrote: post #90
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you draw that conclusion? First of all I do not work in an environment where I do not connect with my peers, secondly I said that I do not like this culture, not that I have a problem if people do. I just understand if poeple do not like it.

That is the premise of the article.

Not entirely. What's your response to this part?

"I felt out of place among my mostly male colleagues because I hated drinking beer and didn’t like being mocked for reading novels. Not to mention that the men who controlled access to the computer made me listen to a barrage of sexist teasing if I wanted to be given that day’s code to run my program."

I'm male. I don't drink beer. I read novels. I don't get mocked for either of them. I don't get sexist teasing. I have seen coworkers do that, though (in more subtle ways)—and that just sucks.

It would be a mistake to interpret or portray this article as "afraid of Star Wars posters" as if Star Wars posters are a thing that actively attacks people who are different.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#100

Post by jkyle »

ascorbic wrote: post #98
jkyle wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. The key is to make it a priority to move to an area where all the families promote a culture that views academic excellence as a good thing. I know this isn't available to everyone due to financial limitations. But it's probably available to more than realize it.

No need for a [sic]. That is how the rest of the English-speaking world spells it.

good to know!
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