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L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

latimes.com

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Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#91
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My entire childhood growing up I never saw a single homeless person despite growing up in an impoverished rural area You didn't look hard enough. Here's an article about homeless people in Ulan Bator, where temperatures reach -40. http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/07/underground-and-off... http://visura.co/user/MikeA/view/40-96

>Evangelical groups, he said, lure the homeless with offers of food, clothing and showers. But their promises of salvation are ignored, with the men resting inside for a few days before returning to the streets and their stupors. The government, he said, has one hospital where alcoholics are taken for up to two years. But there are few opportunities for work once they get out, so the path often leads back to the stre…

> To give you a personal experience: I was followed for a full block and cussed out by a homeless guy just the other day, a choice quote was "it's fuckin Ann Arbor man I know you got money!".

To give you a personal experience: The other day, I ran into five or six panhandlers on the walk between my apartment and the local Target. Without exception, each asked for change and each -without exception- either wordlessly accepted my refusal, or offered some variant of "Okay. Have a nice day.".

Panhandlers and homeless are people like any other. Some of them are obnoxious as shit, just like any other random slice of humanity. Some of them are gaming the system. Some of them are in temporary, but dire need. Some of them will always be in need due to some sort of serious, lasting damage.

I heartily agree that our country has failed a huge chunk of the poor who are in need of psychiatric services. Reinstating funding for effective, humane, state-run mental hospitals is probably about as important as setting up a self-sustaining colony on Mars. [0]

> My entire childhood growing up I never saw a single homeless person...

My parents also shielded me from all sorts of ugly and unfortunate things while I was growing up. I'm not sure that this decision was wise, but it's far too late to change it now. It wasn't until much, much later in life that I learned a little about how to look for the homeless, beggars, and squatters, and the measures that The State employs to try to keep them out of the public eye.

> If [the homeless] choose to [continue to live in homeless outreach programs]...

You missed an important sentence in the bit that you quoted:

>> But there are few opportunities for work once they get out, so the path often leads back to the streets and drink.

If you don't have a way to make enough money to get a place, it's very, very hard to get a place. If you get a dollar a day, and you spend a dollar a day, you're pretty much never going to be able to materially improve your situation on your own.

[0] That is to say, very, very important.

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#92
post #32
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not much to be changed, just make donations voluntary. People are better off deciding where to spend their money. Politicians can ask for it, and spend what they get. Obviously (judging from approval ratings) they will need to make more articulate arguments. Resources would be better spent.

Why do you assume that people would be "better off deciding where to spend their money", and that "resources would be better spent"?

Because 3rd parties generally lack both the information and incentives to do as good a job as you would. This is usually known as the "principal-agent problem"[1].

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal–agent_problem

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#93
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it ethical to put people in cages who don't agree with you (or your group) on property redistribution? (Fixed some typos ^) Short answer: Yes. Longer answer: Tax law is just like any other law. The fact that it affects property ownership doesn't make it different in any way than, say, differing views on spanking children or driving without a seat belt. Person A doesn't go to jail because he doesn't agree with pe…

Your account is very clear, but "a law he agreed on together with B and C" is doing a lot of work here in terms of smuggling in assumptions, or conclusions, about political authority (since in your account people "agreed on" policies they explicitly object to, so long as those policies were created in particular participatory ways).

> assumptions, or conclusions, about political authority

Yes, that post was only relevant for a democracy. "Agreed on together" was deliberately provocative, but you get the idea...

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#94
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Homelessness is a lifestyle for majority of homeless people Can you please elaborate on that? Can you back that assertion that the majority of homeless people sees/chooses homelessness as a lifestyle? It's interesting (and appaling) how a lot of people think along the lines of "if it was me I'd be hustling to get out of it, so homeless people are either lazy or like it", not being able to empathize or understand th…

I used to know a lot of people who for example had houses in another cities and were coming to tourist towns in season pretending to be homeless. They were making enough money to just sit on the couch off season. Also there is plenty of ways those people can stop being homeless if they don't want to. And you appear as someone who would like to force that change on them.

Your sample is biased. When the US govt and other agencies look at homelessness the causes are not often self-inflicted. For example, homelessness in LA is mostly due to the fact that jobs that could pay for someone to live there are relatively scarce (basically, cost of living is nuts in larger cities like LA, Chicago, NY, and etc). Add to the fact that state governments rarely if ever properly fund housing assistance in the US this makes it much worse in areas where even the cost of living is relatively low (like in rural parts of the US). So that's how we got so many homeless. It's not because of some lifestyle choice, it's simple economics and oddly one that can be solved with a minimum of fuss.

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#95
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rates of mental illness are higher in the homeless population than the general population. But it's important to recognise that most homeless or vulnerably housed people do not have a mental illness; and that sometimes it's the homelessness that has caused the mental health problem. I totally agree that the solution is not "just build more homes", but needs to include better access to debt management; better access t…

>But it's important to recognise that most homeless or vulnerably housed people do not have a mental illness This can't be right. A previous HN discussed how "almost half of homeless men had traumatic brain injury in their lifetime" Source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7648933

Brain injury is not mental illness. It's brain injury.

(It might lead to intellectual disability but there's nothing in your linked document that talks about the severity of the TBI.)

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#96
post #92
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume that people would be "better off deciding where to spend their money", and that "resources would be better spent"?

Because 3rd parties generally lack both the information and incentives to do as good a job as you would. This is usually known as the "principal-agent problem"[1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal–agent_problem

I'm not talking about 3rd parties spending people's money as the people wish.

People are better off spending their own money in the sense that they get to choose how their money is spent – but their lack of competence/expertise can for instance make them make bad choices (as in choices that don't lead to the desired goal), and resources will thus not be better spent.

Don't get me wrong, though – it's not like politicians are experts either.

Things are seldom as simple as ideological hardliners claim that they are.

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI, I downvoted you for your condescending second line.

No worries, I couldn't help it.

Please only post civilly and substantively to HN. You can always help it, because you can always edit out the uncivil bits after you post them. That's what most of us do.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#98

These cities create the homeless problem by enabling the lifestyle. It's a taboo thing to say but spend enough time in different locations and you learn very quickly that the homeless are shameless opportunists who go wherever they can most leech off society. My entire childhood growing up I never saw a single homeless person despite growing up in an impoverished rural area. It was viciously cold outside in the winte…

Sorry that this is so off-topic, but your edit breaks the HN guidelines. Please don't go on about downvoting in comments here; it always reduces signal-noise, especially since your post was otherwise a high quality one.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#99
post #12

I remember reading something about how one of the biggest hurdles of tackling homelessness is dealing with those who were made homeless through a history of mental illness. If someone suffers homelessness due to mental illness, I'm sure that chucking them in with a bunch of other homeless people in a shared home isn't going to fix the problem, so it'll be interesting to see how these people will be treated. $100m isn…

This is completely off the top of my head;

There is a tax in SF to provide healthcare to service industry workers -- waitstaff, cooks, bartenders, etc.

SF pays ~25K/year on EACH homeless person (according to a study that was published recently -- ill go look for it in a sec.)

That 25K goes to pay CITY workers who ostensibly are providing the "services" that hte homeless get...

I argue that we, instead, pay the homeless a min income... AND provide several KEY services: Free clothing, hygenic facilities (showers and restrooms), micro housing and access to mental health care.

Imagine providing a 'tiny-house', basic scrubs-like clothing and hygenic resources to the homeless population how different the situation would be.

SF pays 25K per year per homeless person... thats $68 per DAY.

What person could not survive on $68 per day?

Assume that you take ~60% of that cost toward paying for the clothing and housing and showers....

That means that you have $40 per day to pay for the housing and showers...

28 for food. 28/3 is about $8 per meal... 3 meals a day.

So - thats $1200/month in housing costs and 840/month in food.

This is completely doable...

Rather than WASTING 25K on "services" which is really a bunch of bureaucratic bullshit and inefficient failure...

Finally, if you were to take the $840 that could be allotted to food stuffs, and come up with a "standard pantry" of items that is fully stocked for each -- then you could also train the homeless into feeding themselves healthily.

This would be a great use of a "city tax" where every bill could have some small % charged against it.

Keep the whole thing open and transparent...

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/S-F-spendi...

And clearly the current efforts in spending are failing:

https://www.reddit.com/r/sanfrancisco/comments/3dle26/number...

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#100

These cities create the homeless problem by enabling the lifestyle. It's a taboo thing to say but spend enough time in different locations and you learn very quickly that the homeless are shameless opportunists who go wherever they can most leech off society. My entire childhood growing up I never saw a single homeless person despite growing up in an impoverished rural area. It was viciously cold outside in the winte…

Most / many homeless have substance abuse and/or mental problems [citation needed], hardly opportunists.
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