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Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

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Re: Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

#91
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider two schemes for payment of content. A: You must decide, for each piece of data or information you consume, whether and how much it is worth to you. I'll note that in this discussion, not only did you not pay to read a work, but you couldn't even be bothered to click a link to examine it. Which, actually, I applaud as a rational behavior: the odds of being rewarded with quality content by following an arbitra…

First, I didn't realize the first link was by you - I did read it prior to my previous response. I think you overestimate the complexity of refundable (for "regret" reasons) micropayments. Both Amazon and Google play handle this fine. I don't see why one would need to go back and get a refund for a quarter or dollar spent weeks ago; have a "pay to access - refunds as wanted (imediatly) after reading. In essence keep…

I can't get back my "ad view".

Irrelevant.

That's not the payment transaction. You are not paying for content with ad views. You're paying when you buy products and services which advertise online.

Why would you care?

Because unlimited recourse to view, then withdraw payment, torpedoes the system.

You've also got the matter that under a syndication system, all views are retail views, regardless of source. Where advertising promotes piracy schemes benefitting publishers at the expense of authors, a Syndication scheme would fairly benefit both.

A "net traffic" based system would eliminate this concern: it simply doesn't matter where your work is served from, so long1as it's served. And no, it's not necessary to measure via privacy-invading mechanisms:

1. Zipf power functions mean that a small number of major sites are the bulk of traffic. You monitor these.

2. You're concerned with served traffic volumes. Other than eliminating suspect traffic, it doesn't matter who is accessing content, only how many. Yes, you've got a views-inflation issue to deal with, there are methods for mitigating that.

3. Sampled traffic estimates are used to model total traffic. That's apportioned across total funds for apportionment.

There's probably going to be some level of bundling, and it may be that specific creators market through specific syndicates, rather than directly. But in general, you're going to end up with payment based on actual access and funded through an indirect, general, tax or fee.

Google and Amazon serve only specific markets. There are large parts of the world with some Internet access but limited payment or finance systems. Credit card fraud is a thing, $11.3 billion worldwide in 2012, up 15% from prior year, and breaches of credit and payment data details are running to the hundreds of millions if not billions[1]. Individually transactionalised online payments are a considerable risk. Ecommerce for all its touted benefits remains a modest fraction of total retail, favoured strongly in B2B space, that is, established relationships and regular transactions.

Also noted that you've failed to address access issues for the poor, children, researchers, and creatives themselves, all of which a general fee would cover.

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Notes:

1. "Skimming off the top" http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21596547...

Re: Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

#92
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I didn't realize the first link was by you - I did read it prior to my previous response. I think you overestimate the complexity of refundable (for "regret" reasons) micropayments. Both Amazon and Google play handle this fine. I don't see why one would need to go back and get a refund for a quarter or dollar spent weeks ago; have a "pay to access - refunds as wanted (imediatly) after reading. In essence keep…

I can't get back my "ad view". Irrelevant. That's not the payment transaction. You are not paying for content with ad views. You're paying when you buy products and services which advertise online. Why would you care? Because unlimited recourse to view, then withdraw payment, torpedoes the system. You've also got the matter that under a syndication system, all views are retail views , regardless of source. Where adve…

>Why would you care? > > Because unlimited recourse to view, then withdraw payment, torpedoes the system.

This sounds a bit like saying libraries are bad for authors? Why would this torpedo the system? Do we know that people would "freeload" to the extent that the system would break down?

> Also noted that you've failed to address access issues for the poor, children, researchers, and creatives themselves, all of which a general fee would cover.

How so? A child can use a parents account, researchers and creatives can certainly pay? Researchers might get remimbursed of course -- but that's immaterial.

Certainly poor can pay some -- granted, many will not be able to. Let them read for free (by "abusing the refund") -- and start paying when/if they're no longer poor?

I don't see how a flat tax would be any better for the poor, than direct payment? If a person can afford to spend a dollar, or a thousand dollars on content each month -- that doesn't change just because you collect a fee based off of bandwith rather than per-item?

Re: payment fraud -- sure, that's a real problem, and fraud is something every pay system need to account for. I'm not sure that credit cards/micropayments would be more expensive in this regard than tax -- there's plenty of tax fraud too.

I'm mostly concerned with that your model would appear to me to extend the status quo -- where a lot of low quality content get a lot of views, and generate a lot of the profit -- while it'd be better to have a system that promoted more diverse and "better" content -- generally that'd be a slide towards more decentralized publishing/more personal publishing.

This is of course entirely subjective.

Re: Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

#93
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't get back my "ad view". Irrelevant. That's not the payment transaction. You are not paying for content with ad views. You're paying when you buy products and services which advertise online. Why would you care? Because unlimited recourse to view, then withdraw payment, torpedoes the system. You've also got the matter that under a syndication system, all views are retail views , regardless of source. Where adve…

>Why would you care? > > Because unlimited recourse to view, then withdraw payment, torpedoes the system. This sounds a bit like saying libraries are bad for authors? Why would this torpedo the system? Do we know that people would "freeload" to the extent that the system would break down? > Also noted that you've failed to address access issues for the poor, children, researchers, and creatives themselves, all of whi…

Libraries don't allow for unlimited frictionless reproduction. Digital data does.

(Libraries providing content in digital form also do: CDs, DVDs, eBooks).

I don't see how a flat tax would be any better for the poor, than direct payment?

I feel like I'm repeating myself. Oh, because I am. Information is social infrastructure, benefitting all:

● Information goods typically have very high positive externalities -- they benefit those who don't directly consume them.

That is, a tax, particularly one scaled to income:

● Captures the otherwise uncompensated benefit to those who benefit by information even without directly paying for it. Among the benefits I'm referencing is living in an accurately informed public, which requries accurate, relevant, and timely news. Problems with compensation of news media are an ongoing problem. But entertainment matters as well: here's looking at you kid, whether you've paid to watch Casablanca or not.

● Is scaled to income/wealth. Just as the wealthy have benefitted more from society, they're paying on that basis. Dittoes for information.

● Information is raw material. Any denied access is lost social potential and deadweight cost.

your model would appear to me to extend the status quo -- where a lot of low quality content get a lot of views

That is a concern, and something I'm concerned with. It's addressed in a follow-up article (not listed above):

"Specifying a Universal Online Media Payment Syndication System" https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/2h0h81/specify...

"Some level of price tiering. Seems that there should be a recognition that some content is considerably more cost-intensive than others. I've been pondering how to address this, and don't have a good metric, though assigning either authors or works to specific categories, and setting compensation tiers appropriately, could help. This might also be a way to avoid the Gresham's Law dilemma of crap content driving out good. If crap content has zero (or even negative) prices, then there's no (or at least less) economic incentive to produce it. Rewarding highly complex work based on its inputs would also be of benefit. To be developed but several models exist."

There are a number of related articles found searching for "content sindication" on my subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/search?q=content+syndic...

At the very least, you're breaking out of the blockbuster model and restrictions imposed by advertisers or agents on what gets created in the first place. We're already seeing this to some extent now. Sturgeon's Law applies: 90% of everything's crap. But with sufficient filter and recommendations systems, the good stuff can be found (though addressing that is another challenge).

There's also the issue of addressing quality and especially truth/relevance in informational content (news, research results). That's something else I'm kicking around. It's largely independent of content syndication, though possibly not entirely so.

Re: Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

#94
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why would you care? > > Because unlimited recourse to view, then withdraw payment, torpedoes the system. This sounds a bit like saying libraries are bad for authors? Why would this torpedo the system? Do we know that people would "freeload" to the extent that the system would break down? > Also noted that you've failed to address access issues for the poor, children, researchers, and creatives themselves, all of whi…

Libraries don't allow for unlimited frictionless reproduction. Digital data does. (Libraries providing content in digital form also do: CDs, DVDs, eBooks). I don't see how a flat tax would be any better for the poor, than direct payment? I feel like I'm repeating myself. Oh, because I am. Information is social infrastructure, benefitting all : ● Information goods typically have very high positive externalities -- the…

Thank you for your patient and lenghty replies. I still think we disagree - but I think I'm getting a better grasp on your view/ideas.

How do you see taxation/fees working across borders? Clearly agreements can be made, but it seems much more feasible to piggyback on trade agreements than to erect a new international body of law just for digital content? How do money paid by a Chinese factory worker find its way to an American poet? And vice-versa?

Re: Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

#95
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libraries don't allow for unlimited frictionless reproduction. Digital data does. (Libraries providing content in digital form also do: CDs, DVDs, eBooks). I don't see how a flat tax would be any better for the poor, than direct payment? I feel like I'm repeating myself. Oh, because I am. Information is social infrastructure, benefitting all : ● Information goods typically have very high positive externalities -- the…

Thank you for your patient and lenghty replies. I still think we disagree - but I think I'm getting a better grasp on your view/ideas. How do you see taxation/fees working across borders? Clearly agreements can be made, but it seems much more feasible to piggyback on trade agreements than to erect a new international body of law just for digital content? How do money paid by a Chinese factory worker find its way to a…

I get the sense I'm not selling you on this, but the conversation may end up getting FAQed ;-)

How do you see taxation/fees working across borders?

Good question, and one I hadn't really considered, but I'd divide it out into respective chunks:

1. Let's get back to the goal here: it's to provide sufficient compensation to authors and artists of works distributed in electronic form with a minimal of interference, overhead, control, cencorship, or privacy invasion, while enabling, facilitating, and encouraging open distribution of such works. It's not "build a perfect utility-capture system", and it's not "prevent the least amount of unauthorized / uncompensated use."

To that end, a first-order solution to foreign use is "it doesn't matter.

But let's say that's not quite satisfactory.

2. The total global GDP is presently about $70 trillion. Roughly half of that by nominal GDP is contained within the G7 nations: Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the UK, and the US.[1] The G20 (20 largest economies) are 85%.[2] The OECD -- 34 nations -- ⅔ of global GDP.[3] Again, Zipf power functions are your friend. This puts the lion's share of interest in a subset of the 206 sovereign states of Earth.

As with other international tariff treaties (postal, telecoms), most are based on bidirectional rights. If your country's producing significant informational goods, you'll have higher incentives to strike a deal with other countries. States which produce little by way of intellectual property would of course have little incentive. Most of these would be developing nations.

Note as well: this scheme would be fully compatible with CC or Free Software/OpenSource licensing. Authors/creators could register and be eligible for compensation.

3. And as with broadcast, your interest is finding a representative population to sample*. The largest providers, servers, or ISPs within a given nation. If this is based on some sort of licensing arrangement, you'd be looking at those parties to set up monitoring and enforcement.

So: first approximation, don't worry about it and treat each nation independently.

Second: scale out among largest economies first.

Third: approach largest broadband / connectivity providers first.

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Notes:

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G7_(major_advanced_economies)

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oecd

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states

Re: Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

#96
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libraries don't allow for unlimited frictionless reproduction. Digital data does. (Libraries providing content in digital form also do: CDs, DVDs, eBooks). I don't see how a flat tax would be any better for the poor, than direct payment? I feel like I'm repeating myself. Oh, because I am. Information is social infrastructure, benefitting all : ● Information goods typically have very high positive externalities -- the…

Thank you for your patient and lenghty replies. I still think we disagree - but I think I'm getting a better grasp on your view/ideas. How do you see taxation/fees working across borders? Clearly agreements can be made, but it seems much more feasible to piggyback on trade agreements than to erect a new international body of law just for digital content? How do money paid by a Chinese factory worker find its way to a…

Addressing a different aspect, the Ashley Madison incident is another argument against micropayments.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10083536

Re: Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

#97
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. But it's easy, after reading an article,to decide: this was interesting: I don't need my quarter/dollar back? Granted most posts are crap, and also probably most of the stuff that's worth a quarter to some are not worth it to most . But publicatuon is free - if one million people doesn't pay for your book, that's fine if 5000 pays an average of 20 USD for it?

Consider two schemes for payment of content. A: You must decide, for each piece of data or information you consume, whether and how much it is worth to you. I'll note that in this discussion, not only did you not pay to read a work, but you couldn't even be bothered to click a link to examine it. Which, actually, I applaud as a rational behavior: the odds of being rewarded with quality content by following an arbitra…

Yep, you pretty much explained why the "paid" web never took off the first place and free web dominated the world.

Ironically, in the media world, cable/network, both models of content distribution market existed, there is public station yet there is HBO. Why "HBO" never took place in the web world is a mystery.

Re: Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

#98
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With apologies for not reading all the references you list before asking: > it's difficult to assess the quality of information, particularly when disaggregated. Do you mean that it's difficult in general, or in terms of "should I buy this"? I could see micropayments work similar to Kindle - a 24 hour no-questions, semi-automatic refund policy. Don't think that article was worth 50 cent? Just "unpay" for it.

It's difficult for a number of reasons, which I spell out in the essay you've failed to read: Market mechanisms work best where goods are uniform (either individually or on aggregate average), their qualities are readily determined (or again tend to average out well), where the fixed costs of production are low and marginal costs of production high (relative to one another), and externalities, both positive and negat…

When content was distributed via physical good, the manufacture served as the "value appraiser" to invest in the cost of manufacture. This surely functioned as the price discovery but not ideal as it acts on behalf of consumers.

When the distribution cost down to zero, the value appropriator has now changed to advertiser or marketing campaign organization, but in online world is mostly viral though mostly still driven by underground campaign, have replaced the physical media manufacture/distributor and become the new price appraiser.

Re: Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

#99
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe think of it this way, if you were a construction worker and helped build an interstate, you'd be helping all sorts of criminals do all sorts of horrible things. Plus innocent people would die in car crashes on the road you helped to build. But we can agree that the utility of an interstate far outweighs these drawbacks.

I get the analogy, but it just doesn't quite... fit this problem for some reason (maybe because there are a lot of crimes I feel aren't crimes, and crashes are just random fate most of the time). Plus I could think of numerous ways to argue against the analogy that would literally make me sound like a "think of the children!" person... Maybe I just need to think more about my internal attitudes and justifications for…

When internet first appeared many years ago, it was labelled the "bad" thing too, still is in many parts of world. The "think of ..." is not new and has always been in human history every time there is something new.

Back then, Internet literally made many bad things easier and harder for law and law had to adapt.

You get the point. Why do you think internet today is going back to Aol, technology is always a result of culture.

Re: Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

#100
post #43
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not talking about the legal aspects, but, (and I really, really hate to bring up the "think about the children!" argument here) what about if I am unknowingly helping people who create and share child porn? It doesn't matter (to me) if I am on the hook for it or not, I just don't know (ethically?) how I would feel if I knew that was going on via my PC. Drugs I don't give a shit about, and I hate how the "think about…

With a fully distributed model, everyone is essentially running a backbone server. If you don't feel comfortable with such an arrangement, then you'd probably have to opt out. There are plenty of people willing to put up with it, evidenced by the number of companies who have no problem operating the current Internet backbone despite knowing for a fact that their networks are used to distribute child porn and other il…

Perhaps better to take the economical perspective than moral perspective. The coin miner is the backbone of bitcoin, or where all the resource of encryption needed come from, by moral supporters?

Any distributed web attempt must learn from bitcoin and understand the economic ecosystem is required and essential. It beats all pointless endless arguments and find it way to success.

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