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Canada will match US tariffs 'dollar for dollar' as trade talks break down

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Re: Canada will match US tariffs 'dollar for dollar' as trade talks break down

#891

This was totally the right move, if for no other reason than it's the only thing that this US admin will respect in the long run. Being in Canada though this does look v. short sighted of the US. All this is going to achieve is pushing Canada much closer to other countries, particularly China, which at least superficially these negotiations were meant to prevent.

The US admin is basically Trump. Saying Trump will respect Canadian strength shows you are making the same mistake other people keep making in thinking Trump is somehow like them or is consistent enough to predict. I don't think Trump is a rational actor. He is a collection of ephemeral positions lacking coherence accumulated from random sources.

I would too argue it wouldn't be respect but he responds to lines when it's forced upon him for sake of making things difficult in the face him chasing easy wins. You need to prove to him that the reality and consequences you propose exist and are material. Does it guarantee better behaviour from him? No. Because he also has a vindictive side for which he will exercise if he sees a chance to be. But likely you'll experience different approaches despite chasing similar ends.

But the audience of this transaction isn't just the microcosm of Trump in the world at large and time at long. Canadian's supporting their government standing on doing things the right way will set the right expectations for others when dealing with them.

Re: Canada will match US tariffs 'dollar for dollar' as trade talks break down

#892
People might think that Americans are selfish - and there ofc is truth to that - but I strongly believe that many-to-most of us WANT the world to 'reverse-uno' any tariffs or ridiculousness that the administration in power force upon others. We BEG for someone on the outside to standup; because clearly the people in power on the inside are not willing to.

People fail to understand that our system of checks and balances are not some magic potion - or some Boolean flag - that flips on when a violation occurs; its just the power that is given to certain government bodies and people. The failure to use them is not much different than if they didn't exist in the first place.

Re: Canada will match US tariffs 'dollar for dollar' as trade talks break down

#893
post #888

As a canadian, i'm so over this drama. They will either trade with us or they won't. If they don't it will be painful - but im happy with the government reciprocating in kind (so we arent being taken andvantage of), and then moving on as best as possible. At some point you have to stop worrying about the things you cannot change. If trump wants a lose-lose deal, so be it.

Unfortunately for Canada, you guys have screwed up. Why? Because you're completely dependent on the US for energy exports. All that oil you dig up and turn the landscape into the Moon for goes out via pipes to the US from where it's refined and/or exported. Canada has almost no oil export infrastructure of its own (meaning pipelines going to ports).

In retrospect, (original) Trudeau's national energy program does sound good right about now. Alas you can't change the past.

However, you are overstating the level of dependence. It is significant, but certainly not total. It also cuts both ways to a certain extent.

Re: Canada will match US tariffs 'dollar for dollar' as trade talks break down

#894

The world should've collectively recognised what Liberation Day was and responded together, in lock step, and in kind. Instead, the Europeans caved, Japanese caved (PM resigned after doing so), Republic of Korea caved (PM resigned after doing so), India of course caved and so on, shattering any prospect of collective action which might pull the rogue hegemon back into line. Now, the US is simply able to renege or ren…

After WW2, the US largely designed the new world order for its own benefit. It became the world's arms dealer, the US dollar became the world's reserve currency and it had effective control of the world's financial system. And the US got very rich from all of this and wielded a lot of power.

The US has done more to destroy the system it designed and benefits from in the last 1.5 years than at any time since 1945.

What this entire fiasco is about is China. China is the new superpower. It threatens the American global hegemony because it can't be bullied. Why is China the new Big Bad? To sell weapons. Pretty much the entire of American foreign policy is about selling weapons.

So Liberation Day was a ham-fisted way to try and isolate and bring to heel China. It has failed spectacularly because the dumbest sychophants imaginable are in charge of this administration. Because while doing all this, we're witnessing a lootocracy on the largest scale ever seen. When Trump took office in 2017, the national debt was ~$16T and it had taken ~200 years to get there. It just got over $40T. That's like $2T in interest payments every year just to service the debt.

Long ter bond yields keep going higher. That's going to be a really big problem, particularly because there's a political desire to lower interest rates. That's ismply not going to happen and record-high inflation is going to continue, if not get worse, all while real wages stagnate or decline.

So the US can't economically compete with China. Well, it can't militarily compete either. The US has been deceisively been totally defeated by Iran, an absolutely pointless war of choice. And they think they can bully China? Get the hell out of there. Part of the problem is the (now) $1t+ in annual military budget is just more looting from government coffers.

Empires don't die slowly or quietly. That's really what's happening here. The seeds of destruction for the Gulf security architecture have been sown. While Europe is still an American vassal state, realization is growing that the status quo cannot continue. Unfortunately I suspect a fascist takeover will happen long before Europe divests itself from the US protection racket.

I believe that the late 2020s will be written about in history books as the beginning of the end of American empire.

Re: Canada will match US tariffs 'dollar for dollar' as trade talks break down

#895
post #888

As a canadian, i'm so over this drama. They will either trade with us or they won't. If they don't it will be painful - but im happy with the government reciprocating in kind (so we arent being taken andvantage of), and then moving on as best as possible. At some point you have to stop worrying about the things you cannot change. If trump wants a lose-lose deal, so be it.

Unfortunately for Canada, you guys have screwed up. Why? Because you're completely dependent on the US for energy exports. All that oil you dig up and turn the landscape into the Moon for goes out via pipes to the US from where it's refined and/or exported. Canada has almost no oil export infrastructure of its own (meaning pipelines going to ports).

The Port of Vancouver just did 24.4 million metric tonnes and that’s just going to rise. Thanks for your (fake) concern but we’ll be fine.

Re: Canada will match US tariffs 'dollar for dollar' as trade talks break down

#896

On Saturday, he said that American negotiators “asked too much and offered too little.” Among other things, Mr. Carney said that American negotiators pushed to roll back Canada’s efforts to promote Canadian and French language content in online streaming services, subsidies for industries like publishing and film production and even mandatory labeling in French, an official language in Canada, as well as English on p…

This is so stupid. It's really hard to understand how such utter moronic behavior even gets proposed. The best comparison I heard for the cultural idiocy is that it's like asking for the US to end SEC football. And ending French language in Canada has about potential benefit for the US as ending college football would have for the Canada: zilch. There's so much stupidity going on in the US right now that voters don't…

Nobody in the US minds that Quebecois speak French.

The negotiations are because Canada taxes US cultural exports (movies, etc.) and gives that money directly to their Canadian competitors.

It’s perfectly reasonable for any country to ask that their exports not be penalized with taxes, which is what Canada does to many US cultural exports.

Re: Canada will match US tariffs 'dollar for dollar' as trade talks break down

#897
post #888

As a canadian, i'm so over this drama. They will either trade with us or they won't. If they don't it will be painful - but im happy with the government reciprocating in kind (so we arent being taken andvantage of), and then moving on as best as possible. At some point you have to stop worrying about the things you cannot change. If trump wants a lose-lose deal, so be it.

Unfortunately for Canada, you guys have screwed up. Why? Because you're completely dependent on the US for energy exports. All that oil you dig up and turn the landscape into the Moon for goes out via pipes to the US from where it's refined and/or exported. Canada has almost no oil export infrastructure of its own (meaning pipelines going to ports).

Last I've checked Canada had some oil pipelines built + new ones being built to the east coast and west coast. It's something that's been in the works for years before trump.

Also your comment implies that Canada's only export to the US is oil. Canada also exports lumber and agricultural goods, as well as electricity, amongst other things.

And the reason why Canada can't just cave is that Trump will just continue to increase his demands, amongst other reasons. Even in this series of negociations when they finally came close to something the US added demands remove Canada's requirement for French on their packaging (even though French is 1 of Canada's 2 official languages) and separate trade ties with other countries.

Is shit gonna suck for the next while for Canada? Yes, but there is literally nothing they can do to prevent it other than give up their autonomy as a country and become a US puppet, which a vast majority of Canadians are adamently against except for a tiny minority in Alberta.

Re: Canada will match US tariffs 'dollar for dollar' as trade talks break down

#898

Good for Canada, quite a shame the EU folded so easily

Each bloc is handling Trump in their own way according to their needs and circumstances. This isn't a pissing contest, and public perception of them "folding" or not is largely irrelevant (which is why we have actual experts handling this and not the public).

Europe can afford to kick the can down the road and wring as much out of the remaining trade as possible while forging replacement deals with others in the meantime. They know how to buy time with Trump using flattery and sleight-of-hand, and are doing a pretty decent job of it given the rush.

Canada has no such luxury, because Trump already views Canada as weak and exploitable, and so his assaults and "we've decided to change the deal" will never end. That requires a different response tactic, even though it will cause a lot of short-term pain.

You'll also note the veiled threat in Carney's speech yesterday: "Canada fuels American growth: supplying 99 per cent of their natural gas imports, 85 per cent of their electricity imports, 60 per cent of their crude oil imports. I don’t think they want us to stop sending any of that energy."

Timing an energy war to November would be brutal.

Re: Canada will match US tariffs 'dollar for dollar' as trade talks break down

#899
post #895
post #888

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately for Canada, you guys have screwed up. Why? Because you're completely dependent on the US for energy exports. All that oil you dig up and turn the landscape into the Moon for goes out via pipes to the US from where it's refined and/or exported. Canada has almost no oil export infrastructure of its own (meaning pipelines going to ports).

The Port of Vancouver just did 24.4 million metric tonnes and that’s just going to rise. Thanks for your (fake) concern but we’ll be fine.

Which is just over 10% of Canada's oil exports. How does that invalidate my point?

Also, I explicitly said "energy". That includes electricity (you can't export that anywhere else really) and natural gas (almost all of which is used domestically or exported to the US).

Re: Canada will match US tariffs 'dollar for dollar' as trade talks break down

#900
post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Now, the US is simply able to renege or renegotiate the bilateral deals whenever he feels like it, forcing the other party to face down the US by themselves" This won't last. There are consequences for behavior on all scales. If you prove yourself untrustworthy and treacherous, people will treat you as such. International politics don't move very quickly, especially if coordination is required. But it will eventuall…

There is a Japanese proverb "A thousand years of good reputation is ruined in a single hour." Trump has burnt up the single most valuable asset any country or person can have. Trust.

This is very west-centric view.

The countries of the south on the receiving end of US/western 'help' have been disabused of viewing US as 'a shining city on a hill' by their own experience, long time ago.

They saw Carney's Davos speech recognizing the hypocrisy of 'rules-based international order' as just another hypocrisy: you were quiet while those rules suited you, now you squeak, when you are on the receiving end.

But yes, the people in the west are waking-up.

I have gone through the fall of communism. From years when most people actually believed in it (I did not live through that, too young), to years where people knew the system is a sham, but things looked unshakeable, to years where 'something' was in the air, but a real change was unimaginable, to the sudden and very real fall.

We are in 'something is in the air' with the current western system. The problem is that for the communist countries, there was an alternative - the western system (yes, the west's soft power of jeans & coca cola worked). And the communist elites lost their will to power (or had already pre-planned path to oligarchy). Nowadays, there is no clear alternative, and the western elites seem determined to keep the system at all costs (see all the surveillance technology, the push for AI is also relevant). So, the change will be much messier and possibly bloodier than the fall of communism.

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