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Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

latimes.com

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Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#891

Post by zfnmxt »

try-working wrote: post #890
zfnmxt wrote: post #816

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a good comparison. All the students at Harvard are all selected from the tail end of the distribution and are very capable. The students at Scandinavian universities are selected to a degree, but represent a far broader range of the distribution and correspondingly there's a broader range of exam results. Of course, other things are at play here (there is grade inflation at Harvard, the schools obviously…

No, I was in the highest ranked and most selective program in the country. Harvard is a diploma mill, it's that simple.

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Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#893

Post by zfnmxt »

stamps wrote: post #892
zfnmxt wrote: post #891

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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E-vibes?

Internet vibes---basically making conclusions based on feelings you get from participating in online communities. (E.g., Europeans concluding that America is a medical wasteland where most people do not have reasonable access to care because they read some horror stories on Reddit.)

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#894

Post by Glyptodon »

charlieyu1 wrote: post #696
J37T3R wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's at least a standard, and that's the important part. Narrow down what exactly the best way to tell is later, the SAT fits the bill of good enough to re-impliment quickly.

I’d say written tests is a common thing in many countries, and at college age you really should be doing more than multiple choices

I agree with that, but it sounds more like a college readiness certificate concept than a competitive exam concept.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#895

Post by brianwawok »

tedd4u wrote: post #851
thot_experiment wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crazy that such a load bearing job isn't better funded and more respected. Arguably the most important job in society and the level of respect, pay and to some extent training (at least a lot of places require a masters for what that's worth) is absolutely not commensurate with it's importance. I dropped out of high school for the same reason, I had a teacher that failed me for writing an essay in three different sty…

It is very respected in Finland. Having not many natural resources (trees / lumber aside) they made education their national resource. Teachers there are highly respected and have authority in the classroom. Masters degrees are required as well as multi-year in-classroom apprenticeships. Admission to education masters programs are highly competitive.

Always finland. Cool. Such a paradise.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#896

Post by strken »

badosu wrote: post #888
strken wrote: post #879

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, I'll get on the phone to the local special school and let them know their non-verbal autistic students with IQs in the 50 to 60 range are to be enrolled in manifold theory next semester, and if they can't do it then badosu says it's all their fault because anybody can learn maths.

You are being disingenuous. Of course people with disabilities or severely deficient in cognition have innate difficulties that might hamper or completely preclude the development of mathematical skills. The main point is that the educational environment most people have to deal with: public school in most countries, focused on rote memorization of formulas for passing tests, is the main factor on the incredibly inef…

I'll defer to the research[0], but I believe mathematical attainment is correlated primarily with IQ and mostly only correlated with maths anxiety, wealth, etc. to the extent that those things are proxies for IQ.

It's cruel to tell students that everyone can learn maths. Neither "everyone" nor "maths" is strictly true, you know it's not true, and most of the students also know it's not true. If you just told them "everyone in the class can improve" then it would be correct and uplifting!

Terrence Tao is a gifted unicorn with a special brain and this makes him lucky, as does his excellent education. Everything is luck when you look at it from enough of a distance.

[0] For example, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11532492/

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#897

Post by kelnos »

WalterBright wrote: post #763
dnautics wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

education is highly funded. teachers are not paid well because there is a perception that "anyone can be a teacher" (which is true in the sense that there is no particular enumerable qualification or credential that makes you a good teacher) so the market is full of people who decide that they should be a teacher (many should not, but there is no a priori way of knowing). supply high. a lot of education funding goes…

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For #1, some do, but many don't. What's offered differs a lot depend on the school district you work for.

For #2, the amount of uncompensated work and just general bullshit they have to put up with is in no way made up for by "having summers off". (Which they don't, really, as they'll often be doing professional development during the summer, and will be preparing for the start of the next school year well before it actually starts.)

(Source: my brother-in-law is an elementary school teacher in the US.)

For #4, is that universal? I feel like that's something that would depend on state or even on school district.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#898

Post by remarkEon »

badosu wrote: post #802
remarkEon wrote: post #796

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true. Math aptitude is not evenly distributed.

Good education, where one is imbued with motivation to learn and develop knowledge. That's not evenly distributed. Anybody can learn math.

>Anybody can learn math.

I'm actually surprised that sentiments like this still exist. We work in technology, we've had enough contact with enough people to know that there is a difference between motivation to learn a hard technical field and the aptitude to actually do that field. "Anybody can learn basic addition" is mostly true. "Anybody can learn linear algebra" is not.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#899

Post by WalterBright »

kelnos wrote: post #897
WalterBright wrote: post #763

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

For #1, some do, but many don't. What's offered differs a lot depend on the school district you work for. For #2, the amount of uncompensated work and just general bullshit they have to put up with is in no way made up for by "having summers off". (Which they don't, really, as they'll often be doing professional development during the summer, and will be preparing for the start of the next school year well before it…

1. The ones I've seen were gold-plated. Nevertheless, omitting it when talking compensation is significantly misleading. Public school teacher unions are famous for getting very generous retirement and health care plans.

2. Professional development - teachers do opt to get "certs", which result in automatic pay raises. Unfortunately, those certs have no correspondence with better outcomes for the kids. Preparing - yes, this is the lesson plan thing. A teacher told me she worked her fingers to the bone all summer preparing lesson plans. I asked her why she didn't just use the ones from last year. She replied that they had to be individualized for each student. I asked how did she know which students she'd have, as they wouldn't be assigned until the fall? Oops!

4: I googled average number of years until full retirement benefits kick in.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#900

Post by badosu »

strken wrote: post #896
badosu wrote: post #888

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are being disingenuous. Of course people with disabilities or severely deficient in cognition have innate difficulties that might hamper or completely preclude the development of mathematical skills. The main point is that the educational environment most people have to deal with: public school in most countries, focused on rote memorization of formulas for passing tests, is the main factor on the incredibly inef…

I'll defer to the research[0], but I believe mathematical attainment is correlated primarily with IQ and mostly only correlated with maths anxiety, wealth, etc. to the extent that those things are proxies for IQ. It's cruel to tell students that everyone can learn maths. Neither "everyone" nor "maths" is strictly true, you know it's not true, and most of the students also know it's not true. If you just told them "ev…

I am fine with the research results, it's important to note that it does not control for pedagogical variance. [Edit: I'd like refer to the last 2 paragraphs on the Discussion section to point out other issues in the paper the author acknowledges]

One speculation I'd be fine to make would be that high IQ could be associated with survival bias, e.g. someone who is already quite adept at identifying patterns might be able to derive meaning from structures without requiring the motivation that compounds over time for others "less gifted". But I am happy to accept it's just a very convenient speculation.

Sure, Terence Tao might be a gifted unicorn with a special brain, he had of course the circumstance and means to have his potential thoroughly leveraged. Maybe someone "gifted" that is forced to memorize the quadratic formula to pass a test gets bored (but not gifted or motivated enough to complete the square on their own).

Edit: I agree with the rigor on "everyone" and "maths" (not everyone, not all maths), I hoped we had shared context on this basic assumption (which I expected to be a frivolous pedantism, I stand corrected nevertheless). I also appreciate the point about cruelty (which, in the schooling context, I believe goes beyond just our specific topic) but this textbox is too small to contain my wonderful argument.

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