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Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

nytimes.com

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Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#891

Post by 0xy »

AlecSchueler wrote: post #882
0xy wrote: post #832

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is completely misinformed. Biological women and biological men at identical testosterone levels do not have the same grip strength or endurance attributes, because their bodies are fundamentally different particularly in bone size and muscular composition. The average MTF and the average female have wildly different hand sizes, among many other physical differences.

How many "average women" are competing at the Olympics? > particularly in bone size and muscular composition. So group them by that where it's relevant. That doesn't change the fundamental argument I was making.

Seems like a waste of time when biological gender explains these differences aptly. There's also dozens of variables.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#892

Post by pneumic »

crote wrote: post #748
pneumic wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

So what about the kids who already get all of that and still say they are transgender? Should they perhaps be treated like they actually are transgender, or do you propose forced conversion therapy - like we tried in the past with gay people and left-handed people? Puberty blockers aren't being handed out like candy. There's a rather intense psychological diagnostic process before it.

Give them love and care, and let them grow out of it. Do not sterilize and mutilate them—a most extreme form of “conversion therapy”.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#893

Post by tremon »

fgonzag wrote: post #702
kelipso wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will end up being all men at all the skill rating levels.

It doesn't.In tennis a 14 UTR whatever wins against a 13 UTR whatever. UTR is your effectiveness rating against every other player. Same in chess with ELO. The issue is woman would disappear from profesional sports. Sinners 16.27 rating means that he double bagels Sabalenkas 13.29 essentially 100% of the time. The 500th ATP player has a UTR of 13.81, half a point is quite a bit stronger, do he's still very much stron…

I don't get how you can compare Sinner's UTR against Sabalenka's when they're based to two disparate group scores? Doesn't there need to be at least a modicum of cross-pollination to make a meaningful comparison?

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#894

Post by whackernews »

thrance wrote: post #811
whackernews wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you getting this impression?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47538036 Get some help.

“Hate”? I think you might be over blowing the word, I’m sorry you feel that way. I think you might have a bit of a negative view and tend to think people are against you when they’re not. To me I see this as all related, it’s all playing into each other. Just chill mate it’s not a good headspace. Maybe reassess what you are defining as hate. Is it you who’s spreading it?

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#895

Post by 113 »

dpd_dpd wrote: post #796
113 wrote: post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a meta-analysis that says trans women don't exhibit significant differences in performance: https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/60/3/198

Here's an in-depth critique of the claims made in that paper: https://www.voidifremoved.co.uk/p/beef-trifle

That is a blog.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#896

Post by jojobas »

RealityVoid wrote: post #752
jojobas wrote: post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-transgender stance in sports doesn't mean anyone is doing something wrong, it's just that it's considered unfair to female women, and this includes various other conditions such as Khelif's. As far as your other argument it seems to suggest doing away with the whole women's sports as separate.

> Anti-transgender stance in sports doesn't mean anyone is doing something wrong, it's just that it's considered unfair to female women, and this includes various other conditions such as Khelif's. Right, but that's not what's going on here, it's used as a platform for bigotry under the pretense of protecting women. It's not only... we need clear ground rules for this thing in order to have a level playing field, it'…

I don't think it was ever "look at what the trans are doing" but much rather "look what these evil bastards in sports bodies are doing". Some think these evil bastards are part of a larger plot to ruin the western civilization, go figure.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#897

Post by [deleted] »

kelipso wrote: post #710
fgonzag wrote: post #702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't.In tennis a 14 UTR whatever wins against a 13 UTR whatever. UTR is your effectiveness rating against every other player. Same in chess with ELO. The issue is woman would disappear from profesional sports. Sinners 16.27 rating means that he double bagels Sabalenkas 13.29 essentially 100% of the time. The 500th ATP player has a UTR of 13.81, half a point is quite a bit stronger, do he's still very much stron…

So women would not be in something like top 2000 of tennis players or worse. Which would basically remove any incentive for women to participate in pro tennis at all.

[deleted]

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#898

Post by space_fountain »

lesostep wrote: post #818
space_fountain wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think not many people are arguing that we shouldn’t exclude people based on testosterone in elite events, but none of these were trans women, these were all women who lived their entire lives as women from the moment they were born

I'd argue about testosterone. High testosterone happens in some woman naturally, why exclude them? They still are woman, they should have a right to participate. Height is also an advantage in sports, and women statistically are much shorter then man, should we ban tall woman from sports? Should we say "she exhibits a male amount of height, it isn't fair to let her participate with 'normal' woman"? The more "fair" we…

My view is that testosterone is a reasonable thing to discriminate on because:

1. It is causally connected to primary and secondary sex characteristics

2. It has a large impact on performance in many sports

3. It's easy to explain to most people and somewhat matches people's intuitions around fairness

But, yes, it is true that there are cis women with high T levels and it is somewhat unfair and arbitrary to include them when not excluding other random advantages that people have. I'm just not sure if I have a better solution

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#899

Post by dpd_dpd »

113 wrote: post #895
dpd_dpd wrote: post #796

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an in-depth critique of the claims made in that paper: https://www.voidifremoved.co.uk/p/beef-trifle

That is a blog.

It is, yes. It is also a substantive critique pointing out methodological issues in that meta-analysis.
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