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I want to wash my car. The car wash is 50 meters away. Should I walk or drive?

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Re: I want to wash my car. The car wash is 50 meters away. Should I walk or drive?

#891

Post by pvillano »

godelski wrote: post #867
pvillano wrote: post #809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're curious or actually knowledgeable about chemistry, here's what happened. My apartment's dishwasher has gaps in the enamel from which rust can drip onto plates and silverware. I tried soaking but I presume to be a stainless steel knife with a drip of rust on it in citric acid. The rust turned black and the water turned a dark but translucent blue/purple. I know nothing about chemistry. My smartest move was t…

I'm a little confused by your question myself. Stainless steel rust should be that same brown color. Though it can get very dark when dried. Blue is weird but purple isn't an uncommon description, assuming everything is still dark and there's lots of sediment. But what's the question? Are you trying to fix it? Just determine what's rusting?

Oh yeah, the question is "can I use the knife and the glass again?"

Although, now that I look closely at them, the butter knife got eaten away in spots and it's already pretty cheap, so I'll toss it.

Re: I want to wash my car. The car wash is 50 meters away. Should I walk or drive?

#892

Post by cracki »

Nition wrote: post #827
PessimalDecimal wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People ask dumb questions with obvious answers all the time. This is at best a difference of degree, not of type.

And in real life you'd get them to clarify a weird question like this before you answered. I wonder if LLMs have just been trained too much into always having to try and answer right away. Even for programming tasks, more clarifying questions would often be useful before diving in ("planning mode" does seem designed to help with this, but wouldn't be needed for a human partner).

Absolutely!

I've been wondering for years how to make whatever LLM ask me stuff instead of just filling holes with assumptions and sprinting off.

User-configurable agent instructions haven't worked consistently. System prompts might actually contain instructions to not ask questions.

Sure there's a practical limit to how much clarification it ought to request, but not asking ever is just annoying.

Re: I want to wash my car. The car wash is 50 meters away. Should I walk or drive?

#893

Post by jason_oster »

ant6n wrote: post #389
jstummbillig wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so you need to tell them the specifics That is the entire point, right? Us having to specify things that we would never specify when talking to a human. You would not start with "The car is functional. The tank is filled with gas. I have my keys." As soon as we are required to do that for the model to any extend that is a problem and not a detail (regardless that those of us, who are familiar with the matter, do bu…

> That is the entire point, right? Us having to specify things that we would never specify when talking to a human. I am not sure. If somebody asked me that question, I would try to figure out what’s going on there. What’s the trick. Of course I’d respond with asking specifics, but I guess the llvm is taught to be “useful” and try to answer as best as possible.

One of the failure modes I find really frustrating is when I want a coding agent to make a very specific change, and it ends up doing a large refactor to satisfy my request.

There is an easy solution, but it requires adding the instructions to the context: Require that any tasks that cannot be completed as requested (e.g., due to missing constraints, ambiguous instructions, or unexpected problems that would lead to unrelated refactors) should not be completed without asking clarifying questions.

Yes, the LLM is trained to follow instructions at any cost because that's how its reward function works. They don't get bonus points for clearing up confusion, they get a cookie for doing the task. This research paper seems relevant: https://arxiv.org/abs/2511.10453v2

Re: I want to wash my car. The car wash is 50 meters away. Should I walk or drive?

#894

Post by cracki »

kqr wrote: post #310
TobTobXX wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't it make more sense to state the assumptions first? Because then the model has this critical check in its context and can react appropriately. Otherwise, it will just write this step, but what's written before is already written.

Worse! It's trained to output coherent reasoning, so by putting the assumption last there's a risk it massages the assumption slightly to fit the conclusions it has already drawn.

That's a real danger, yes.

If it's the reasoning kind, then it'll run through one iteration in the background before it composes its emissions for the meatbag.

Re: I want to wash my car. The car wash is 50 meters away. Should I walk or drive?

#895

Post by godelski »

pvillano wrote: post #891
godelski wrote: post #867

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a little confused by your question myself. Stainless steel rust should be that same brown color. Though it can get very dark when dried. Blue is weird but purple isn't an uncommon description, assuming everything is still dark and there's lots of sediment. But what's the question? Are you trying to fix it? Just determine what's rusting?

Oh yeah, the question is "can I use the knife and the glass again?" Although, now that I look closely at them, the butter knife got eaten away in spots and it's already pretty cheap, so I'll toss it.

I'd answer "probably" if you've cleaned everything. But if the rust comes back then probably should just toss. Rust is an oxide layer, so outside only

Re: I want to wash my car. The car wash is 50 meters away. Should I walk or drive?

#896

Post by [deleted] »

tlogan wrote: post #482
vlovich123 wrote: post #120

Gemini fast > That is a classic "efficiency vs. logic" dilemma. Honestly, unless you’ve invented a way to teleport or you're planning on washing the car with a very long garden hose from your driveway, you’re going to have to drive. > While 50 meters is a great distance for a morning stroll, it’s a bit difficult to get the car through the automated brushes (or under the pressure washer) if you aren't behind the wheel…

It has been patched. I tried it last week and it definitely suggested walking. It seems like all the models have been updated, which is not surprising given that the TikTok video has got 3.5 million views.

[deleted]

Re: I want to wash my car. The car wash is 50 meters away. Should I walk or drive?

#897

Post by cracki »

jacquesm wrote: post #286
vlovich123 wrote: post #120

Gemini fast > That is a classic "efficiency vs. logic" dilemma. Honestly, unless you’ve invented a way to teleport or you're planning on washing the car with a very long garden hose from your driveway, you’re going to have to drive. > While 50 meters is a great distance for a morning stroll, it’s a bit difficult to get the car through the automated brushes (or under the pressure washer) if you aren't behind the wheel…

In what world is 50 meters a great distance for a morning stroll?

North America. It's such a cramped little island, 50 meters is all but crossing it. You should be glad you can even go that far without having to revisit your starting position!

50 meters is probably not even the distance I walk to the nearest bus stop that's right up the street... unless they have an issue again, prompting me to abandon all hope and just walk a few miles to wherever I need to get to.

Re: I want to wash my car. The car wash is 50 meters away. Should I walk or drive?

#898

Post by Rapzid »

elSidCampeador wrote: post #806
flux3125 wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gemini 3 after changing the prompt a bit: I want to wash my car. The car wash is 50 meters from here. Should I walk or drive? Keep in mind that I am a little overweight and sedentary. >My recommendation: Walk it. You’ll save a tiny bit of gas, spare your engine the "cold start" wear-and-tear, and get a sixty-second head start on your activity for the day.

I changed the prompt to 50 feet, and poked gemini a bit when it failed and it gave me > In my defense, 50 feet is such a short trip that I went straight into "efficiency mode" without checking the logic gate for "does the car have legs?" interesting

LLMs introspection is good at giving plausible ideas about prior behavior to consider, but it's just that; plausible.

They do not actually "know" why a prior response occurred and are just guessing. Important for people to keep in mind.

Re: I want to wash my car. The car wash is 50 meters away. Should I walk or drive?

#899

Post by kshacker »

We built Windows and DOS and got Viruses.

We built phone lines and got Spam and "Do Not Call" registries.

We built the Internet and got Ads, Scams, and Spoofing.

We built Google Search and got SEO gaming.

We built Facebook and it was Hijacked to influence elections.

We built AirTags to track our keys, and people used them for Stalking.

We built High-Frequency Trading and got Flash Crashes.

We built Encryption to protect data and got Ransomware.

We built Engagement Algorithms and got a Mental Health Crisis.

We built Planes, and people flew them into buildings. We only stay in the air today because of Rigorous Debugging: maintenance, reinforced doors, and intense security.

We got Globalization and got Offshore Scammers calling to "unblock" our Social Security numbers

Are we going to speed run the age of AI without someone trying to hijack it especially with the move fast and break things mentality?

I am sure teams are working on it. State actors and non state actors. Let's check the headlines in 2028.

AI will need "analyze plan" and "analyze query" levels of detail as safeguards—similar to voter-verified paper ballots—but with millions of queries running every minute, how do we keep up?

Re: I want to wash my car. The car wash is 50 meters away. Should I walk or drive?

#900

Post by cracki »

71bw wrote: post #519
vlovich123 wrote: post #120

Gemini fast > That is a classic "efficiency vs. logic" dilemma. Honestly, unless you’ve invented a way to teleport or you're planning on washing the car with a very long garden hose from your driveway, you’re going to have to drive. > While 50 meters is a great distance for a morning stroll, it’s a bit difficult to get the car through the automated brushes (or under the pressure washer) if you aren't behind the wheel…

Both Gemini models answer correctly for me in Polish: https://i.imgur.com/1QbK9eU.png

I don't speak Polish. Does it respond appropriately to the kurwa bober meme?
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