Earlier quoted context omitted.
well, in this case, idf reaction was quite peaceful given the circumstances and that thirty thousand people participated and tried to overrun the border while been armed
That you can write this, with a complete lack of awareness of how people who aren't brainwashed by zionist propaganda perceive what you're saying, is mind blowing honestly.
‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler
891–900 of 955 posts
Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler
#892Earlier quoted context omitted.
What other areas? Do you have any standards at all for what the word genocide means? You want to get into the muck about whether the population has increased or decreased by some fractional or single digit percentages? All this demonstrates is that you want to twist the meaning of words to support whatever interpretation of events is in vogue with your tribe.
well it turns out that it in fact, has not grown since the war began https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2024/dec/06/instagram-... but I mean, you guys also call amnesty international, the ICC, the BBC and reality itself antisemetic so believe whatever you want. the only "tribe" I'm in is the one where indiscriminate killing of innocent people is wrong.
Why don't you reveal your standard for what a "genocide" is without discrediting the actual ongoing genocides in other places? Israel has got to be the most incompetent prosecutor of genocide in history.
Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler
#893Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, that is quite peaceful given the circumstances and that thirty thousand people participated. The IDF should have retreated and the israeli government have ended the occupations and started dismantling its colonies in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, then entered negotiations about return and reparations. To get a feel for how the IDF perceives the Gaza strip border one can watch https://xcancel.com/Timesofgaza/…
well, in this case, idf reaction was quite peaceful given the circumstances and that thirty thousand people participated and tried to overrun the border while been armed
according to who?
Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler
#894Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thanks for the perspective here. I may have disagreements with you, but I appreciate the view
Might I inquire on the disagreement? A civil discussion is always interesting
I'll preface that my knowledge of the situation is 'bad'. In that, I think I'm likely not qualified to give informed opinions on it. Okay, that out of the way...
> Ideally? Palestinian accepting the existence of Israel, foregoing their demands for the right to return and East Jerusalem, and then we can peacefully coexist.
Right to return is a tricky one here. It's been very long that they have been 'out' of their homes/locations. So much so that it's difficult to say whose it is now. Which, yeah, that's not good. I come at this from a Native American perspective. In that, my ancestors took land away and had land taken away from them. I can feel that pain still in the family and that listlessness and hurt in me to a (absurdly) small degree.
From what I know, the sticking point of all sticking points is the Temple Mount. Each side wants it to the exclusion of the other. And from what I can see, each side is willing to mortgage their children's and grandchildren's lives on that point. Literally, this is the hill they are willing to die on, and sacrifice their progeny on too, endlessly (ancient allusions come flying out here without much effort).
I used to think that someone could 'Kind David' that land and just nuke it or something. But no, they would fight over the glowing green hole too, like the irradiated wasteland in Fallout 4. To an outsider, it's hopeless, I don't think that either side is willing to ever peacefully relent on the Temple Mount, let alone all the other land.
> Realistically? Maintaining strong border security, erect more walls, prevent Palestinians from crossing into Israel, legally or illegally, control any gate they have with the outside to prevent smuggling of weapons.
I don't see how treating the Palestinians poorly is going to make things better. Their incentives are badly aligned with Israel's if they are treated in such a way. I don't think that trying to forcibly make them a separate entity is going to get them to do what Israel needs. To me, the best way to get Palestinians to stop the violence is to have them 'grow' their way out of it. In that, they are so busy thriving that they no longer care about the past issues. This, I admit, is a very American perspective, and a western American one at that. I know that my idea here is a longer term one, and right now the short term is very critical. But, for me, it's a matter of incentives. If Israel can somehow make it so that the conditions exist that Palestine is more interested in something other than the destruction of Israel, then all the better. I have no feasible way to accomplish this though. I can only say to look at places and times where such things did occur. My terribly brief survey of this says that it's a matter of poverty and growing out of the 'hole' was the solution when it did occur. Still, I know that the deep and long hatreds overshadow it all.
My solution is a glib one. The participants just need to stop being who they are. These ways don't seem to work well. My automatic reaction is that they all just need to do the hard work of true forgiveness. But, again, that's not who the participants are. That is a Christian method for Muslims and Jews; it's not going to happen.
I guess my main disagreement is that the proposed solutions don't deal with the longer term, just the shorter one, and they don't accept the agency and feelings of the Palestinians and their incentives.
Thank you for the opportunity to discuss and learn more. Please tell me where I am wrong and missing out on things. Also, sorry for delays in response and I think we're in quite different time zones and schedules.
Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler
#895Earlier quoted context omitted.
Literally no human rights organization endorses this claim. Meanwhile, the IDF has been caught on video forcing civilians at gunpoint to enter combat zones ahead of them. This actually fits the definition of 'human shielding', but oddly, it doesn't factor into your calculus. So much for being an adult.
Why would I go to a third party when I can see the evidence directly? Both israelis and palestinians post raw footage on back channels. You are pretty much saying "Don't look at the raw footage, listen to what these groups say instead" No thanks, I favor primary sources.
Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler
#896Earlier quoted context omitted.
Bend over backwards to a country that tortured them and is committing a genocide against them? Would you have asked the Jews to bend over backwards to Nazi Germany to appease them? You're not interested in discussing in good faith, pretending that this is only because of October 7. Hope you sleep soundly while tens of thousands of children die at the hand of a genocidal state.
> Would you have asked the Jews to bend over backwards to Nazi Germany to appease them? The holocaust did not happen because Jews were sneaking into Berlin and murdering innocent people in their homes. When the current conflict begins in that way then the group who started it needs to beg for forgiveness, especially when that is their only card. Hamas is no match for Israel militarily and have no cards to play here.…
by this logic, if only the nazis had provided an excuse acceptable to germans, like israel has provided one acceptable to israelis, the ethnic cleansing and genocide would have been ok
oh wait, they did, and it was the same excuses: 'the preservation of our ethnicity is more important than them'; 'they’re subhuman'; 'we must wipe them out for the good of our society'; etc; etc
so much for 'never again'
Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler
#897Earlier quoted context omitted.
There have been Jews in Jerusalem, even a majority of Jews, in Ottoman times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Jerusal... The Jews of Morocco (or Baghdad, or Tehran) can't go back. For that matter, surviving Polish Jews were chased out of Poland after WWII. Most Israeli Jews are Mizrahi and most Israeli Jews don't have a 2nd passport. And, of course, people have a right to self determination. Jews…
I love that you brought up right to self-determination. However it comes with the bundle with all human rights and international laws, including Prohibion on forced displacement (like Nakhba), full recognition of Human Rights (apartheid state), territorial integrity (settlements), prohibion on genocide (ICC/ICJ is awaiting trial) The international law has been settled on this: Two state solution, 1967 borders, full r…
The problem is that the goal of the Palestinians is not a Palestinian state, it's to ensure that the Jews don't have a state. Otherwise they would have gotten a state in 1947. Except that the Palestinians didn't exist as a polity in 1947, and the West Bank was claimed by Jordan until 1988. The PLO was established in 1964, not to free the West Bank from Jordan, but to undo the 1948 war.
There is no Palestinian opposition that says not agreeing then was a mistake and they should have taken the offer (e.g. in 2008).
The main issue is not that some Palestinians are under the rule of horrible leaders like Hamas, the problem is that Hamas is the most popular party. The Palestinians completely support the goal of undoing the establishment of Israel. And apparently are mostly ok with the principle that it doesn't matter how many lives it costs, as long as Muslim land is freed, i.e. no sovereign Jews.
Basically, Israel has peaceniks and leftists, and even right wing governments were very willing to give land for peace, believing in the two state solution. The Palestinians have never had any peaceniks. The Israeli peace camp was badly wounded by the second intifada and it seems completely killed by October 7th.
Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler
#898Can someone living in Israel help me understand what is going on right now? What does the political climate look like in Israel? Do majority of people support what is happening, if so why? if not, how is the government executing this? Further, has this had any impact on the overall relationship between Jewish people worldwide and those residing in Israel? if so, how? I know that the media is all over the place and it…
On all levels, including information war. Information war is the only one where hamas is currently winning.
That is why you are already heavily biased based on the tone of your questions. About 90%+ of what you see on mainstream media is either a straightforward lie or carefully designed, massaged and distorted truth (for example hamas counts as casualties everyone, including fully armed terrorists killed in action). Another example is fake news about “starvation” where they post standalone photos of children with generic disorders as a proof. Im just scratching the surface.
This information war is mainly sponsored by quatar and iran with 2 longterm goals in mind 1) destabilizing and undermining USA influence in middle east and worldwide 2) destroying israel and killing as many jews as possible (literally, they don’t hide it if you check anything besides bbc and english al-jazeera)
That is what really going on. That is the brutal truth. Unfortunately it’s not an exaggeration.
Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler
#899Earlier quoted context omitted.
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Struggle harder to explain how 10's of thousands of civilian deaths out of a population of 2 million and which has been increasing during the "genocide" can possibly be a "genocide".
Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler
#900Earlier quoted context omitted.
If the above mentioned surveys are to believed, then a not insignificant fraction of Israelis care less than you expect them to. Why is that? What are we misunderstanding about their perspective that causes the expectation to be off?
> Why is that? What are we misunderstanding about their perspective that causes the expectation to be off? There's a perfect explanation for this in Ten Steps of Genocide, which is taught by many Holocaust museums. Instead of recognizing Palestinian humanity, Israelites (not all, but enough to gain control of their government) have allowed themselves to discriminate, dehumanize, and persecute them. Granted, not doing…
The demonym for someone from Israel is Israeli.
> Instead of recognizing Palestinian humanity
There are ~2m Palestinians in Israel, making up about 21% percent of the population of Israel and Palestinians in Israel have had the right to vote since 1949.
According to my research, there are 10 Palestinians in the Knesset.
So I don't know that your claim is accurate.