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The $25k car is going extinct?

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Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#891

Post by VerminOctopus1 »

tlogan wrote: post #884
Glyptodon wrote: post #878

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak to the specific years, but there's no doubt that a fair number of small, less expensive, cars have been knocked off - the Rio, the Prius C, the Fiesta... I think there are more than just those (though maybe some of it is lineup consolidation, considering the eventual Kia K3). At the same time, some of the remaining options have had (IMO) huge MSRP hikes. But you are right that a lot of the price increas…

> less expensive, cars have been > knocked off - the Rio, > the Prius C, the Fiesta.. You are incorrect. Prius C in 2005 was $21,510 (not really "less expensive") and that is about $34,827.67 in 2025. (See: https://www.kbb.com/toyota/prius/2005/ ) And in 2025 Prius starts from $28,350 (see: https://www.toyota.com/prius/ ) So this narrative that there are no more cheap cars is incorrect.

Comparing one model (which actually isn’t even the same model) over time doesn’t make sense. Also you’re moving the goalposts here, $28,350 base is not “cheap”

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#892

Post by bigfishrunning »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #825
pif wrote: post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars have much more functionality these days, and it is good. But too much of that functionality is mandatory, and this is bad.

What's new on the mandatory list? Electronic stability control doesn't sound like it adds any meaningful costs over ABS. Backup cameras are a cost but not a huge one. What else is there?

There's a lot of features that aren't mandatory, but exist in just about any model so they might as well be. It used to be cheaper to get a manual transmission, now there are very few available, and usually on enthusiast models. Very few cars don't have power locks and windows. New cars generally have a touchscreen entertainment system. etc.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#893

Post by ceejayoz »

cogman10 wrote: post #797
dotancohen wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think that software isn't complex because you've never seen it. What should it do when the throttle pedal goes from 0 to 99 percent? That's likely an electrical issue, not a driver command to plow through the school zone. I could probably think of a dozen such scenarios, and the true number is probably in the hundreds. They all have to be proofed mathematically. With redundancy. Out of eye, out of mind.

There is fundamentally no difference between a golf car and an electric car other than a higher top speed and more powerful motor. > What should it do when the throttle pedal goes from 0 to 99 percent? How fast? 0->99% in 1 second is likely the user gunning it. 0 to 99 percent in a millisecond is likely a fault. In either case, the simplest solution is a capacitor in-between the signal and throttle. Doesn't need to b…

But an EV has instant torque; going 0-99% in one second is probably unwise and not fixed by a capacitor. Software's what helps us not strip the rubber off the tires, or mitigates a slipping wheel on ice. It's a lot more than a capacitor at work.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#894

Post by dghlsakjg »

potato3732842 wrote: post #680
__s wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rearview cameras are effective: https://www.iihs.org/research-areas/bibliography/ref/2130 I agree with having simpler SKUs, but rearview camera is not where to start

The problem isn't that they're effective. It's that they're a regulatory solution to the complaints that the same demographics had 20yr ago (it's too easy to back a big fashionable in the 00s SUV over a kid) and as a result of it now all cars have crap rear visibility because there's no reason to be good when you have the camera.

Visibility has gotten worse in many vehicles as a crash safety thing. Rear visibility is so blocked because the "beltline" of cars has moved up as crash standards get more stringent. A car that has a small rear window and high 'beltline' will do better in a crash.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#895

Post by VerminOctopus1 »

tlogan wrote: post #577

This is a great example of how factually incorrect narratives - so long as they align with a preferred agenda (which is that things are not affordable any more) - it gets upvoted. Reality check: - In 2025, there are 12 new car models available under $25,000 - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) So the premise that “cars used to be much more affordable” is not true. This…

Did you even read the article before making your comment? It is actually data driven like you are demanding, while your own comment is not beyond the most basic sense. A superficial count of models below $25,000k MSRP is not adding to the discussion.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#896

Post by bigfishrunning »

itsoktocry wrote: post #821
alerighi wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if they would make a basic car like in the past I would buy it. Everyone has to sell you too much, I want a simple car, I don't want either the stereo, I will add my own later (I can put it one that is better than the factory one for a cheaper price, but in a modern car replacing the stereo is almost impossible). There are a ton of useless sensors, the sensor that tells you if you have a flat tire (I think I can…

Spoken like someone who hasn't owned a late model car. > I can put it one that is better than the factory one for a cheaper price As someone who used to be involved in the car audio competition scene, those days are long gone. Modern sounds systems are great, and tightly integrated into the A/V system. > the sensor that tells you if you have a flat tire The sensor will tell you when there's a rapid drop in pressure.…

> Yeah, they provide roadside assistance. Because changing your tire on the side of the road is dangerous (as is driving on the donut).

As is waiting on the side of the highway for an hour (possibly in the winter, possibly in the dark) until AAA arrives. Also, allowing you to pay for roadside assistance isn't the same as "providing" it.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#897

Post by tlogan »

nzealand wrote: post #861
wavemode wrote: post #762

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Average new car price is very misleading. When you buy a car, they don't charge you the average, they charge you what the specific car you're buying costs. If there are a dozen cheap car options for sale, it is irrelevant to me that there are also some more expensive options for sale.

MSRP of Honda Accord went from $15k-$30k in 2005 to $30k-$40k in 2025. MSRP of one model is also not perfect, but it's another data point.

> MSRP of Honda Accord went from $15k-$30k in 2005 to $30k-$40k in 2025.

> MSRP of one model is also not perfect, but it's another data point.

I do not know if this is true.

- Cheapest Honda Accord in 2005 was $17,510 (that is $28,895 in today's money) - https://www.kbb.com/honda/accord/2005/

- Cheapest Honda Accord in 2025 is $28,295 (https://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan).

So the price is really the same.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#898

Post by fwip »

dotancohen wrote: post #553
cogman10 wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software doesn't have to be complex. The most complex piece of software EVs absolutely need is the BMS and the charging protocol. Everything else is super basic. There's a reason some of the earliest vehicles were EVs.

You think that software isn't complex because you've never seen it. What should it do when the throttle pedal goes from 0 to 99 percent? That's likely an electrical issue, not a driver command to plow through the school zone. I could probably think of a dozen such scenarios, and the true number is probably in the hundreds. They all have to be proofed mathematically. With redundancy. Out of eye, out of mind.

Are they actually proving correctness in the auto industry as a matter of course? My understand (could be out of date) was that there were a few partnerships with universities for a small part of the stack.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#899

Post by jollyllama »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #767
bumby wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those “useless” sensors like tire pressure or backup camera are required by law. Even if you get a bare bones hatchback (manual transmission, manual locks, manual windows etc.) they’ll be forced to include those.

Honestly, good! I am so tired of these insane "I want nothing but an engine" spiritual boomers. They are making the road far more dangerous for everyone. Yes, I will force you to have automatic emergency breaking in your Model T hotrod. Yes, you will be mad. Yes, the road will be a lot safer. No I don't care about your boomer rage about technology. No you don't want to live with India tier road laws/standards - even…

> Yes, I will force you to have automatic emergency breaking in your Model T hotrod.

Fantasy cope, you can't even force emissions testing in most counties.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#900

Post by bluefirebrand »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #857
bluefirebrand wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/prius/2015/ 10 grand it seems? That's pretty rough, especially with that mileage

That's a little steep, but you gotta grade mileage on a curve -- if it's reasonably maintained, it'll keep trucking for a lot longer than that, it should be plenty for a starter car. I mean, I'm biased, since I drive a (very well maintained when I bought it, high mileage) 2007 Prius that I bought for ~7.5k...8, 9 years ago? and I'm still getting ~40mpg and it survived some pretty questionable maintenance and care on…

> I don't know that you can do much better these days, and it doesn't feel unreasonable

It's pretty unreasonable as a class of "starter car" though

I can't imagine many teens working a min wage job for a summer and having a car afterwards if they cost like this

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