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U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

wsj.com

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Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#891

Post by relistan »

CapricornNoble wrote: post #727
relistan wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Countries with their own free choice asked to be part of NATO. The US did not push this on them. NATO expansion happened exactly because none of those countries trusted their neighbor Russia, who had previously invaded them and kept them under its thumb for 50 years. Russia is both to blame for the expansion of NATO and Russia's subsequent invasions of Georgia and Ukraine.

>No. Countries with their own free choice asked to be part of NATO. The US did not push this on them. I've seen this stated frequently on HN. Here's a quote from President Clinton in February 1999[1]: That is why I have pushed hard for NATO's enlargement and why we must keep NATO's doors open to new democratic members... NATO would add 12 nations in the decade after those remarks, with the first 3 formally joining 2…

I think you are confusing support for expansion—which was necessary for it to happen—with somehow forcing the hand of other nations to join. Yes the above all shows that America thought it was in its strategic interest, that Clinton supported it. That does not eliminate the fact that much of Eastern Europe wanted to join for exactly the reasons I mentioned. And nobody made them do it.

Furthermore, if you read the articles you cited, you’ll find that you are starting mid conflict. By the point when Georgia engaged with Russia in 2008, Russia had already stirred up separatist groups, armed them, supported their violent takeover, and sent Russian advisors to support them in occupying Georgian territory. You can’t start at the middle.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#892

Post by jstrebel »

Justsignedup wrote: post #344
egberts1 wrote: post #339

People would say Budapest Memorandum give Ukraine the rights to its 2,000 Soviet nuclear weapons. That's not what it said. People would say that the same memorandum says Ukraine security is absolute. Not that either. People would say in 2014, US installed new Ukraine government via propaganda. Looks dubious too. People would say Ukraine shut down 11+ political parties who opposed current Ukraine government; some part…

Just so you know. The Ukranian constitution states no elections during war. All political opponents have come out and said we will hold elections after victory. Nobody is against postponement. Ukraine has had healthy consistent elections since the Russian backed government was booted out.

Well that's right, but only the currently elected parliament is allowed to stay during war times, not the president. So you cannot have elections, but the president cannot simply stay in power without them.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#893

Post by tweetle_beetle »

codedokode wrote: post #700
KiwiJohnno wrote: post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is any of those things are effectively a reward for Russia for starting the war and invading Ukraine in the first place. Why should Russia get any advantage out of the war that they 100% started?? And pay them compensation! What a suggestion! Russia is a bully. What do you think will happen if we have to pay the bully off each time they start smashing up their neighbors stuff up or just making threats? An…

> NATO is a purely defensive organization Are nuclear missiles located in Europe and pointed to the East also "purely defensive" weapon? It doesn't help good relations when you have a gun pointed at your face.

Defensive weapon is something of an oxymoron, apart from technologies like missile defense [1]. Putting that to one side, rational deterrence theory[2] suggests that:

(Probability of deterrer carrying out deterrent threat × Costs if threat carried out) > (Probability of the attacker accomplishing the action × Benefits of the action)

You could argue that Russia successfully destabilising the US (via Trump) and Europe (via Brexit and far right) is proof that nuclear missiles "pointed to the east" worked at defending against direct conflict and forced an alternative.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_defense?wprov=sfla1 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterrence_theory?wprov=sfla1

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#894

Post by 4ndrewl »

skinnymuch wrote: post #888
SpaceL10n wrote: post #795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most countries have some form of selective service. We're all barbarians...

It is barbarism within the context of elites in Ukraine sitting around taking money of cowards in Europe and the Five Eyes funneling money and weapons in. A war that could not be won. It was wrong to not cease fire in 202. A proxy war is not the same as most situations

Educate yourself.

Look up the Minsk agreements, that Putin wants to take control of all of Ukraine. And Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania. And parts of Finland.

This does not stop with a few towns in Eastern Ukraine, this is existential for many countries of the Free World.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#895

Post by lovich »

nanotuber wrote: post #875
lovich wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Trump Administration will resume military aid after Ukraine is forced to ceasefire talks. Bold claim with little evidence

If it happens come back and read and think about this thread again (read my other comments in it). :) Promise I'll do the same if it doesn't happen.

> Promise I'll do the same if it doesn't happen

Shit man, you totally convinced me. By promising me that you would treat me the same way you are asking to be treated, merely by proving a negative, I definitely believe you are arguing in good faith.

Oh, no wait, I think you are either lying or pushing propaganda.

For dang or anyone else coming in to complain about this post violating hn posting rules, I would ask you to explain to me how I am supposed to assign agency to posters, while they fail to avoid introductory fallacies when it comes to debate

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#896

Post by lovich »

lovich wrote: post #895
nanotuber wrote: post #875

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it happens come back and read and think about this thread again (read my other comments in it). :) Promise I'll do the same if it doesn't happen.

> Promise I'll do the same if it doesn't happen Shit man, you totally convinced me. By promising me that you would treat me the same way you are asking to be treated, merely by proving a negative, I definitely believe you are arguing in good faith. Oh, no wait, I think you are either lying or pushing propaganda. For dang or anyone else coming in to complain about this post violating hn posting rules, I would ask you…

Fuck, when double checked my posts for the night I found out you were also the other person I responded too, for having logically invalid arguments[1]. I’m almost certain I am arguing with a bot at this point, but I guess you can try to convince me otherwise

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43259102

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#897

Post by munksbeer »

rayiner wrote: post #761
Kim_Bruning wrote: post #747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, ok, it's a red line for you. Good that you make that explicit, but you are being a thrifty with information there. This site is for curious conversation, so I'd love to see you elucidate a bit further! What's the nature of the red line? For instance, Are you worried they'd get hurt? Are you worried about political implications? Or, does the fact that there are already American volunteers to fighting in Ukraine ch…

I don’t want the U.S. to bear the cost (in money and lives) of a war that doesn’t directly relate to protecting the american homeland. I think U.S. foreign policy has been a failure since the 1950s—we shouldn’t have gone to war in Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait, Iraq, etc. The only justifiable war in that time, in my opinion, was Afghanistan, where the Taliban harbored terrorists that had attacked the U.S. I think the premis…

What I find a bit incongruous about this view, is that if we accept it, then we're also accepting the narrative (which may well be true) that the US was the primary cause of the push for Ukraine to join NATO and come under the US sphere of influence. This is basically Putin's claim, and their given reason for the invasion of Ukraine.

So how do you marry that up with the lack of culpability the US is now demonstrating? If you accept it, then surely it is also the primary responsibility of the US to resolve the situation peacefully, which pacifies Russia but also leaves Ukraine in a reasonable position. From everything I understand about Trumps "deal" for Ukraine it does nothing of the sort.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#898

Post by lovich »

lovich wrote: post #608
nanotuber wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The implication is that nuclear proliferation is linked to the US pausing Ukraine aid. That's a gross mischaracterization. I'll bet you 10 to 1 that Ukraine won't end up with nukes.

How did you move the goalposts in three sentences? Nuclear proliferation occurring does not require Ukraine in particular to be a country with nukes

Nanotuber is a bot

> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43264671

Anyone have any proposals to fight propaganda like this on forums in general?

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#899

Post by munksbeer »

skinnymuch wrote: post #885
dlahoda wrote: post #777

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what do you mean by western coup? so you would preffer russian troops killing political opponents and protesters in ua, like they did since 1992 in belarus till these day to avoid """coup"""? or you prefer russian troops did 10x more massacre and hide it, instead they did 10x less in bucha and did not have time to hide? btw just talk with pl and cz old people how their western coup was going. seems like people prefer…

The west does things even worse than that to non white people and the west does near nothing (usually perpetrating this behavior) to avoid coups the way you’re saying. There was a coup orchestrated by the west in Ukraine in 2014. Followed by an escalation of a complicated situation that is not clear cut like people in the west like to make things seem. After the coup, there was suppression of Russian things by the we…

> There was a coup orchestrated by the west in Ukraine in 2014

When did they become accepted wisdom? What if it isn't true?

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#900

Post by Mawr »

Suppafly wrote: post #549
HPMOR wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is __so___ off topic, but the $ goes in front of the value for USD. It should be $500. Again, again, I know read the room, there's a tragic war going on, and the US is becoming complicit in the tragedy. But if we don't have time to be pedantic about monetary symbols then what good is the freedom we still possess.

People are downvoting this, but I'm always suspicious of comments online that imply they are from the US but mess up simple details that no native US user would mess up.

Really, it's surprising that someone used dollars to convey the value of something? On a western, US-focused, English-speaking forum?
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