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Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

reuters.com

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Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#891

Post by hedora »

KikoHeit wrote: post #517
hedora wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you proposing the deal could be made more fair? Keep in mind: Israel killed 100x more civilians than Palestine during this conflict, and more damage was done to Gaza than any European city during wwii. 90% of the population is displaced. 10% are casualties. Israel intentionally blew up all the civil infrastructure (hospitals, doctors, engineers) first. There are > 17,000 children that have no adults to care f…

[flagged]

If, as you argue, it’s appropriate to respond to one civilian casualty by orphaning 10 kids, killing 100 civilians and displacing 1000, then the same reasoning implies it’d be acceptable for the Middle East to collectively murder 10% of Israel’s population, displace 100% of it’s population and level all it’s buildings and infrastructure.

So, if Iran has working nukes, I guess they should use them?

Then what? Israel probably has nukes too, so I guess the US should help them glassify the entire Middle East?

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#892

Post by xg15 »

sempron64 wrote: post #850
7sidedmarble wrote: post #841

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not authoritarian to its own ethnic population maybe... How exactly does that right of protest extend to the people it's occupying?

[flagged]

A foreign territory that israel is at the same time at war with, but also controls borders, imports/exports, airspace and the population registry.

Also, what about the West Bank? The PA is decisively not at war with Israel, yet the occupation there is even stricter than in Gaza. The Israeli government seems to view it as a Schrödinger's territory that at the same time is part of the state and not part of the state.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#893

Post by m000 »

macspoofing wrote: post #803
xg15 wrote: post #21

Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. I just fear this will cause western media and politicians to and declare the crisis to be over (after it had began on Oct. 7, of course absolutely out of the blue and without any context...) and go back to pretending everything is back to normal. Never mind that Gaza is still in ruin…

This is a one-sided description of the conflict. I am empathetic to Israel, because they also do not have a lot options. Israel, as it it currently constituted (based on 1967 borders) is not a viable state if the West Bank is a hostile entity with a standing army, and funded to a similar extent as Hezbollah. The West Bank bulges into Israel and effectively cuts the country in half and places all strategic targets wit…

Why is demilitarization always a unilateral affair? Has this solved anything in the past 50+ years?

It should be either be bilateral militarization (a miniaturized MAD if you will - similar with the Korean peninsula I guess), or bilateral demilitarization and extensive UN force deployment.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#894

Post by troyvit »

mapt wrote: post #873
hylaride wrote: post #854

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with you, but will comment. There is a justifiable argument for Israel to occupy the west bank and/or the Gaza strip (whether one agrees or not is another matter that I will not get into). Settling it is another matter entirely, and this action is what causes so much grief. But what Palestinian supporters continuously fail to grasp is that every time Israel has tried to give (and there were many atte…

The fact that we use the term "Settling" and "Settlers" is kind of grotesque. These places are occupied, by Palestinians, who have to be ethnically cleansed (with varying degrees of violence) in order to establish new Israeli Jewish settlements. This is done with Israeli Jewish soldiers, a hundred thousand of whom now patrol hundreds of enclaves and all major routes through the West Bank. Isreali and US right-wing le…

That's how the term is used in the U.S. as well, when history classes describe "settlers" who wiped out the Native Americans who lived here through genocide, germ warfare, regular ol' warfare and displacement. I think in general when one sees the word "settlers" one should assume the worst.

> military-industrial complex that they share with each other and with centrist parties just wants a reason to keep existing.

This is so freakin' true. I feel like, if world peace ever reared its ugly head Americans would whine, "but jobs!" because of the hit it would give the military-industrial complex.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#895

Post by regularization »

beagle3 wrote: post #561
npn wrote: post #472

How many square kilometers of land does Israel gain this time?

You are aware, I hope, that Israel pulled back from Gaza completely in 2005, and from Sinai in 1980? It’s been growing smaller since 1973 (and never technically annexed any area it did temporarily take in a war)

Israel invaded Syria in 1967, stealing land, and they just pushed farther into Syria, stealing even more land. How is this growing smaller?

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#896

Post by m000 »

lostlogin wrote: post #528
KikoHeit wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This is just such a toxic thread. What say did the civilian victims in Gaza have in the horrific acts by Hamas? There isn’t even a glimmer of moderation in anything I see in the argument here.

> There isn’t even a glimmer of moderation in anything I see in the argument here.

At this point, would we be surprised if this thread turned out to be part of an OSINT campaign?

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#897

Post by dralley »

pjc50 wrote: post #835
macspoofing wrote: post #803

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a one-sided description of the conflict. I am empathetic to Israel, because they also do not have a lot options. Israel, as it it currently constituted (based on 1967 borders) is not a viable state if the West Bank is a hostile entity with a standing army, and funded to a similar extent as Hezbollah. The West Bank bulges into Israel and effectively cuts the country in half and places all strategic targets wit…

> Israel, as it it currently constituted (based on 1967 borders) is not a viable state if the West Bank is a hostile entity with a standing army, and funded to a similar extent as Hezbollah. The West Bank bulges into Israel and effectively cuts the country in half and places all strategic targets within shelling distance. This is exactly the same argument that Russia has been using to annex territories such as Crimea…

>This is exactly the same argument that Russia has been using to annex territories such as Crimea; "it's strategically important for us" isn't really sufficient justification for mass murder, and - on a purely geographic point - talking about the West Bank doesn't justify anything to do with Gaza, which is geographically separate.

Russia is the largest country on earth, whereas the distance from the West Bank to Tel-Aviv is like 5 miles.

This roughly like arguing that owning a personal nuke is no different from owning a firecracker. The scale of the threats are separated by several orders of magnitude.

>And why the 1967 borders rather than the 1948 ones?

Because the Palestinians rejected the 1948 borders, started a war, and then lost. Incidentally they also rejected the 1967 borders by starting a war in 1973 and losing that one too, but the consensus around those borders is at least a bit more solidified so people still pretend they're meaningful rather than null-and-void.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#898

Post by dralley »

nashashmi wrote: post #837
macspoofing wrote: post #803

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a one-sided description of the conflict. I am empathetic to Israel, because they also do not have a lot options. Israel, as it it currently constituted (based on 1967 borders) is not a viable state if the West Bank is a hostile entity with a standing army, and funded to a similar extent as Hezbollah. The West Bank bulges into Israel and effectively cuts the country in half and places all strategic targets wit…

> The West Bank bulges into Israel and effectively cuts the country in half and places all strategic targets within shelling distance. That’s why the peace before 1967 was so important. But Israel ended it and was left with a mess that now all young people are drafted into service.

Egypt implementing a blockade triggered the 1967 conflict. It didn't come from nowhere. Then that was followed up by yet another war against Israel in 1973.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#899

Post by jakelazaroff »

rayiner wrote: post #890
jakelazaroff wrote: post #879

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most countries wouldn't be in that position in the first place. Mexico attacking the US would be basically unprovoked; Hamas attacking Israel is… not.

We literally took California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, and Texas from independent Mexico in a war.

…in the 1840s.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#900

Post by jakelazaroff »

sempron64 wrote: post #889
jakelazaroff wrote: post #879

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most countries wouldn't be in that position in the first place. Mexico attacking the US would be basically unprovoked; Hamas attacking Israel is… not.

Before the attacks Israel was in the process of normalizing relations with Gaza. For example, they were increasing work permits monthly. Here is an article from summer 2022 https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/bennett-said-to... The Nova music festival was a peace festival. So yes, the Oct 7th attack was unprovoked. Subjective historical context is not provocation.

An ongoing occupation and blockade is not historical context, it's present context.
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