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Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

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Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#891

Post by steveklabnik »

Sn0wCoder wrote: post #715
zozbot234 wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the Google folks are also funding efforts to improve Rust/C++ interop, per https://security.googleblog.com/2024/02/improving-interopera...

Thanks for the link. This one was also posted awhile back in a rust comment and when I first read it, I thought Google had used Rust in the V8 sandbox, but re-reading it seems that the article uses Rust as an ‘example’ of a memory safe language but does not explicitly say that it uses Rust. Maybe someone with more knowledge can confirm that Rust was (or was not) used in the V8 Google Chrome sandbox example…. https://…

Rust is not used in V8, to my knowledge.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#892

Post by astrange »

kazinator wrote: post #612
astrange wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because there's so many more of them. Maybe because being called not a real UNIX programmer feels different from being called a Blub programmer.

Maybe I should ask: why should someone interested about Lisp today have to hear stories about some Erik Naggum who posted to a Usenet newsgroup, and died 15 years ago? Let's assume that the newsgroup is important. Legendary Lisp hacker Alan Bawden posted there just last week or so. Nobody ever mentions him.

Every other one I've met in my life was nearly as unpleasant. Fewer death threats but they clearly all thought they had 200 more IQ points than you because they could write a macro. Thus the term "Lisp weenie".

In this case I think people should learn from history and that specific examples are the best way to do that. It's, like, effective pedagogy or whatever.

Supposedly Clojure people are nice though.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#894

Post by e12e »

MerrimanInd wrote: post #281
fidotron wrote: post #71

Starting by saying I fundamentally agree wrt iteration speed. This is ultimately why [C/C++]/Lua was such a thing for a while, and it seems quite plausible that you could benefit from a core engine in rust bound to a scripting language. But ultimately I sense the subtext here is much the same as with other Rust problems: the object oriented baby has been thrown out with the bathwater, often in the name of premature o…

I've been playing around with an idea about OOP for awhile, not sure if it'll ring true or not but I'll run it up the flagpole for feedback. I think FP is a great way to program actions and agency but OOP is a great way to model the world. I like Rust's trait system because the polymorphism is based on what you want an object to do not what it is . But when you're creating models of the world it's usually really conv…

> OOP is a great way to model the world

There's a reason Simula was the first OOP language.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simula

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#895

Post by OvermindDL1 »

burntsushi wrote: post #874
IshKebab wrote: post #840

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ripgrep, fzf I think these are great examples of where prototyping and rapid iteration are really not needed at all, and hence Rust shines here. Writing a game is completely different.

The initial version of ripgrep was absolutely a rapid prototype. I do rapid prototyping all the time. I'm not saying Rust is good for game dev, but the idea that Rust cannot be used for rapid prototyping in any context is a myth.

Indeed, I personally find Rust to be very nice for rapid prototyping, incremental recompilation is usually a second or two even in my giant projects (mold helps on the linking step but that's less of a rust thing anyway), and I'm very curious how cranelift will change things in the future, it would be nice to hot swap function implementations on the fly at least.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#896

Post by OvermindDL1 »

tormeh wrote: post #207
fidotron wrote: post #71

Starting by saying I fundamentally agree wrt iteration speed. This is ultimately why [C/C++]/Lua was such a thing for a while, and it seems quite plausible that you could benefit from a core engine in rust bound to a scripting language. But ultimately I sense the subtext here is much the same as with other Rust problems: the object oriented baby has been thrown out with the bathwater, often in the name of premature o…

This makes a lot of sense. Wonder if Bevy will add support for GDScript or C# or something. I think it's generally opposed in the interest of ensuring the Rust devex is as good as possible, but it's coming eventually, I think.

A general bevy scripting crate has already been in the works, they were waiting on various things like be y reflect and other such features to be able to work properly and so forth. In other words it's already planned and there's a lot of work being done on it with a whole lot of dependent functionality coming out in every single release.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#897

Post by pcwalton »

lumost wrote: post #615
kibwen wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd expected some AAA title to be written in Rust by now. I'm disinclined to believe that any AAA game will be written in Rust (one is free to insert "because Rust's gamedev ecosystem is immature" or "because AAA game development is increasingly conservative and risk-averse" at their discretion), yet I'm curious what led you to believe this. C++ became available in 1985, and didn't become popular for gamedev until…

I sometimes wonder if the problem with rust is that we have not yet had a major set of projects which drive solutions to common dev problems. Go had google driving adoption, which in turn drove open source efforts. The language had to remain grounded to not interfere with the doing of building back-end services. Rust had mozilla/servo which was ultimately unsuccessful. While there are more than a few companies uinf r…

> Rust had mozilla/servo which was ultimately unsuccessful.

There's lots of Rust code in Firefox!

> I haven't seen the “we manage 1-10 MM sloc of complex code using rust” type projects.

Meta has a lot of Rust internally.

The problems with Rust for high-level indie game dev logic, where you're doing fast prototyping, are very specific to that domain, and say very little about its applicability in other areas.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#898

Post by efnx »

vacuity wrote: post #218
popcar2 wrote: post #46

> Rust gamedev ecosystem lives on hype I've been saying this for years. I've tried to get into Rust multiple times the past few years and one of the things I've tried was gamedev with Rust (specifically the library ggez when it was still being worked on, and a little bit of Bevy). I admittedly never got far, but I gave it a solid shot. My experience was instantly terrible. Slow compile times and iterations, huge pack…

Now I'm wondering how far people could go a hypothetical Rustscript* that transpiles to Rust (or hooks into rustc?), introduces extra features such as reflection, removes lifetimes, and changes the defaults around things like monomorphization. * name intentionally made to make people angry

There’s [Rune](https://github.com/rune-rs/rune/).

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#899

Post by pigpang »

iknowstuff wrote: post #230
vacuity wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope Rust does gain mature options for its GUI ecosystem, but the author of the article makes a very good point that in other languages, there would be mature options in use already. "Seems promising" is too little, too late.

For sure! I would not write a game in Rust in 2024.

Many games are written in Rust already, but they are not AAA games. Example: https://bfnightly.bracketproductions.com/chapter_0.html

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#900

Post by opyate »

zonovar wrote: post #688
busterarm wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lamothe's Black Art book came out in '95. Abrash's black book came out in '97. Borland C++ was pretty common and popular in 93 and we even had some not-so-great C++ compilers on Amiga in 92/93 that had some use in gamedev. SimCity 2000 was written in C++, way back in '93 (although they started with Cfront) An absolute fuckton of shareware games I was playing in the 90s were built with Turbo C++.

I also remember by videogame magazines I was reading back in early 90s that another C++ compiler that was a favourite among devs was Watcom C++ that was released in 88.

OMG, the name "Watcom" just opened a flood of nineties memories of the demo scene for me. Thanks for mentioning.
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