Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC • Hacker News Board

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#891

Post by max51 » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 7:09 PM UTC

Ekaros wrote: post #534

pavlov wrote: post #531

My prediction is that Bitcoin will become fully institutionalized within twenty years, to the point that the “Bitcoin” held by investors are entirely disconnected from the theoretical blockchain. A similar thing happened with stocks. Not so long ago they used to be physical pieces of paper. You could trade shares peer-to-peer and even anonymously by handing over the share certificate to someone in person. For dividen…

You know, those coins that satoshi mined are too high risk for our blockchain and bitcoin. So we just blacklisted all of them. And basically also all that haven't moved in 1 year from the date we did. Sorry your coins are forever dirty and no miner will include transactions with them in a block...

Do you seriously think you can convince all mining pools to start blacklisting addresses like this?! The entire reason why it exists in the first place is to prevent interventions like this, it's what gives btc "value". Your chances are about as good as the USA trading their oil in ruble.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#892

Post by max51 » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 7:16 PM UTC

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #571

spaceman_2020 wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin didn’t go to zero with people buying it through shady exchanges operated out of tax havens, and you think Bitcoin will go to zero AFTER its available to every investor in the US through every finance app and is being sold by giant hedge funds?

> and you think Bitcoin will go to zero AFTER its available to every investor in the US through every finance app and is being sold by giant hedge funds? The reasoning is (I'm not saying I believe this will happen just that it is an interesting thought experiment) that if people quit the shady exchanges and start trading Bitcoin ETF in substantial numbers it could begin to starve the crypto network of transaction fee…

>it could begin to starve the crypto network of transaction fees and the exchanges and other crypto companies of customers.

"Nobody Goes There Anymore, It’s Too Crowded"

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#893

Post by gonzan » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 7:26 PM UTC

akoboldfrying wrote: post #684

pavlov wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The popularity of these scammy exchanges despite the massive red flags shows that this is actually what customers want. They don't want the theoretical advantages of permissionless blockchains and private keys, they just want penny stocks that trade 24/7 and are called "crypto" because it sounds cool. So institutions will take advantage of that desire for convenience and work with regulators to turn "crypto" into jus…

This is right on the money. It's incredible to think about really: the one technical feature that truly differentiates crypto from all other forms of currency -- namely, a cryptographically strong guarantee that no one else can touch your money -- gets thrown away routinely and no one minds at all.

Why would I mind if other people hold their money themselves or use a custodian as long as I have the option to custody my own money? Let people choose

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#894

Post by cornholio » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 7:27 PM UTC

ivancho wrote: post #843

cornholio wrote: post #826

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to need more context here on the ChipMixer claims. Let's say a tracked party deposits amount A in CM style mixer, and then receives private keys corresponding to amounts B, C, D, E, F, G, previously deposited in the blockchain, which happen to add up to A minus a random 0 to 4% mixing fee. You have full view of A and know that it's being deposited to CM with 100% confidence. As long as nothing moves on the…

But we don't have to search for those keys in all of the deposits that CM ever made - only in the ones that stopped churning and mixing. Maybe they try to control the dynamics of their lots to be statistically indistinguishable from the withdrawals - but that requires a vastly larger pool of capital and continuous operational effort, and I have a hunch they do not in fact do that. Furthermore, if you are a client, ho…

The point is, if law enforcement needs for the launderer to mess up after the invisible off chain transfer, or for the mixer to betray them, you have already conceded that address pseudoanymity is a strong, sometimes unremovable layer of privacy. Forensics exist even for physical cash, you can trace banknote serial numbers, lift physical fingerprints or DNA etc. Yet, that doesn't mean it's a good idea to leave people cross borders with sacks of money, there is wide agreement in our society that cash offers a privacy that is very conducive to anti-social actions. Bitcoin privacy is much, much stronger than physical cash, and pushed to 11 for things like Monero or Zcash.

In the restricted scenario provided, it really is logically impossible to know the ownership transfer happened. Your attack requires knowing all inputs into the laundry, which you won't have in the general case, they'll look like any other transfers in the blockchain.

Even if a mixer is busted, I can be pretty sure they abide by their public claim to not keep any history older than a few hours after the mixing is complete, secret keys and all, because it's not in their interest for such evidence of crimes to exist.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#895

Post by the_gastropod » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 7:30 PM UTC

npoc wrote: post #883

the_gastropod wrote: post #857

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its purpose was to provide fresh blood to the John Birch Society. It seems to be working remarkably well, in that respect.

Yes, a common side effect of going down the deep bitcoin rabbit hole and discovering how the world really works.

I'm sure you're aware of this... but every conspiracy theorist and cult member thinks this way. A moment of self-reflection may be in order.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#896

Post by dang » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 7:36 PM UTC

fancyfredbot wrote: post #569

dang wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Don't be snarky. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Genuinely mortified. I'll resist the urge in future. Thanks for keeping HN such a great site Dan.

Appreciated!

Btw I know comments like that are fun when talking to friends or whatever. We just have that guideline because of how they influence discussion on a large internet forum...not for any ethical reason or anything like that.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#897

Post by adastra22 » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 7:39 PM UTC

somenameforme wrote: post #885

adastra22 wrote: post #868

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commodity currency does have a "disincentive to investment" which has a measurable negative effect on the economic climate. This was first identified and studied by Silvio Gesell in the early 20th century, then John Maynard Keynes a few decades later. Removing this disincentive is what ushered in the post-WW2 period of prosperity and growth that we're still living in today. The part your analysis is missing is that f…

The USD was a 'commodity currency' up until 1971 thanks to Bretton Woods. It was convertible to gold at a fixed rate, and other currencies were, in turn, pegged to the USD. The idea was to have the stability/security of a backed currency, with the convenience of a fiat one. The security was intended to come from the fact that if the US printed too many dollars, devaluing the USD, then other countries would buy up tho…

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/y6p7mh/wtf_h...

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#898

Post by fidelramos » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 7:52 PM UTC

liaukovv wrote: post #799

fidelramos wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wealth can't really use to purchase anything with is not real wealth. If you can't convert bitcoin to $/€ it becomes effectively worthless I agree, that is why Bitcoin was supposed to be electronic cash, you were supposed to be able to pay for everything with it. Bitcoin (BTC) doesn't scale today to this purpose, but you can still use it to pay directly for some products and services as long as the other party will…

And how would seller pay taxes? They didnt get any fiat, they can't off-ramp it presumably(otherwise buyer would have done it), and now guy with a gun comes and demands his share, what happens?

That is why Bitcoin was first announced in a cypherpunk mailing list [0].

[0] https://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg09...

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#899

Post by Ekaros » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 7:58 PM UTC

max51 wrote: post #891

Ekaros wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, those coins that satoshi mined are too high risk for our blockchain and bitcoin. So we just blacklisted all of them. And basically also all that haven't moved in 1 year from the date we did. Sorry your coins are forever dirty and no miner will include transactions with them in a block...

Do you seriously think you can convince all mining pools to start blacklisting addresses like this?! The entire reason why it exists in the first place is to prevent interventions like this, it's what gives btc "value". Your chances are about as good as the USA trading their oil in ruble.

Not all, but enough. Specially if there is no on or off ramps for the other forks...

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#900

Post by ericd » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 8:08 PM UTC

pyvpx wrote: post #853

ericd wrote: post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you imagine the US could do with its weapons cache to demand global compliance? Even extremely authoritarian governments that have tried to stamp out crypto usage internally have been unsuccessful, so it's not like the USG could just lean on other governments to demand compliance.

any sovereign state or multinational needs to deal in dollars. and the USG controls that rail. well. call me when you can trade and refine oil purely in bitcoin. no one accepting bitcoin to buy things is holding that bitcoin. I beg every blockchain as money people to please, please obsess over monetary theory first!!

I don't think the person you were replying to was saying that it was going to take over as the primary reserve currency, do you?

So the US controls those international settlement rails, what does it do with that power to control BTC? Like I said, they can lean on governments, but those governments don't really have the power to ban it internally, so what can it really do with that leverage?