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'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

aljazeera.com

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#891

Post by Gibbon1 »

jncfhnb wrote: post #709
la64710 wrote: post #704

Just need one side to surrender to end a war.

A group like hamas cannot functionally surrender. Nor does it have any incentive to.

I see a lot of similarities between Hamas and other violent insurgent groups.

They are intransigent and will always chose violence over any other more reasonable option[1]. And take decades of concerted effort to stamp out. The Muslim Brotherhood still exists despite decades of efforts to suppress it.

[1] The sad thing is the road of violence is where the Palestinians are weakest. And the road of using shaming is where they are strongest.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#892

Post by bob1029 »

dang wrote: post #2

All: if you're going to comment in this thread, please do not do so in the spirit of battle. The latter is off topic here, and the last thread HN had about this did not do well enough at keeping to the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . Instead, ask first whether you can find a place of compassion in yourself before commenting. If you can't, that's understandable, but then please don'…

Can we get a write up of this "experiment" from your perspective sometime next week?

(Ideally after you finish dealing with all the irate email)

Some of us are probably wondering if we will be seeing more of these "experiments" into 2024. If this is going to be the case, I'll seclude myself in some darker, more obscure corner. Maybe I'll go back to 4chan. Ambiguous moderation is much more onerous to me than no moderation.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#893

Post by hef19898 »

peyton wrote: post #800

> it's important to me to remind people that the US destroyed Iraq in response to 9/11 That is not true. I remember Bush’s address: https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/infocus/iraq/new... I would say that US military doctrine has successfully created the most peaceful era in human history as measured by mortality rate due to conflict, and a fundamental part of that is the willingness to confront adversaries w…

The most peaceful era? Since WW2 we had, just naming the major ones with US participation, Korea, Vietnam (twice, first the French with US help and the US one), the Second Gulf War, the War on Terror, with highlights in Iraq and Afghanistan (it spanned the globe, earbing the name "global war on terror", and took 20+ years to end with a withdrawal frok Afghanistan). Feel free to count the casualty estimates from wikipedia. Peacefull is sometjing different.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#894

Post by hbt »

ashirusnw wrote: post #661
covercash wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t take out Hamas with military force unless you eliminate every Palestinian in Gaza. “Hamas” is just the current name for oppressed people pushed to their limits who are using the scraps at their disposal to fight back against decades of abuse. So long as there is an apartheid state there will be people who fight back with whatever they can get their hands on, no matter what they call themselves. Israel has a…

Israelis don't view them as less than human, that's ridiculous and refuted by numerous polls and surveys of Israeli society. Israeli Arabs are represented in the knesset and have equal rights to any Israeli citizens. (Although in places like East Jerusalem which is neither Israeli nor West Bank, they are treated halfway in terms of security restrictions or building rights, which is where most of the accusations of di…

Here is your own newspaper documenting the treatment of "Israeli Arabs" (Palestinians who were allowed to stay in Israel)

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-01-09/ty-article-ma...

Over 60 discriminatory laws exist, here is a few passed between 2009-2012 alone https://www.adalah.org/uploads/2009-2012_Discriminatory_laws...

You can read more about the systemic 2nd class treatment of "Israeli Arabs" here https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-palestinian-citizens-of-... Most links refer to zionist newspapers and laws in case you need more references.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#895

Post by fennecfoxy »

This sort of thing is a commonplace occurrence: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/jul/17/the-rape-of-..., additionally only men being legally required to remain in Ukraine, drafted, etc. Usually it's only men who are systematically tortured/killed when Russian soldiers enter Ukrainian villages. Of course women are at risk of being raped, but so are men - and things so much worse than rape.

But the worst thing is that because of the way that men are still positioned within society, we're both targeted for these things, but are also refused any support/understanding when it does happen.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#896

Post by nailer »

ido wrote: post #854
nailer wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

We didn't have the UN to organize international agreements and compromises before 1945. I don't think there's any other realistic chance for peace, like the Israelis the Palestinians are too stubborn to simply give up and surrender.

Why is being within the 1967 borders a realistic chance of peace?

Israel was previously within its 1967 borders, in 1967, Arab states declared war on it anyway.

A realistic chance of peace is Arab states realising that they’re not going to be able to kick Jews out of the Jewish homeland.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#897

Post by underdeserver »

wolverine876 wrote: post #375
xyzelement wrote: post #254

I have mixed feelings about this topic appearing on HN as I feel like folks are entrenched one way or the other and information isn't going to sway anyone. If this were a discussion we want to have here, this feels like a very bad article as by it's nature it's a one-sided subjective narrative with very little light to shed on the depth of the conflict. An interesting differentiator left unsaid in this article is tha…

> I feel like folks are entrenched one way or the other and information isn't going to sway anyone People like to profess doom and hopelessness but I see productive conversations, in this thread and another recent one. Why, in the face of the evidence, is it important to believe and convince people that it's hopeless? The trend to despair just pisses me off. Nobody ever taught me to embrace despair; I don't know abou…

Except nobody does. How many people got off their asses, came to the region and took a look with their own eyes? How many went to work for the NSA in the Palestinian department to understand what's actually going on? How many have spoken to both sides with open eyes and open minds, gathered all the actual evidence and testimonies, systematically categorized them, confronted liars with their proven lies, and so on, and formed a concrete opinion based on actual proper research?

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#898

Post by exodust »

jncfhnb wrote: post #709
la64710 wrote: post #704

Just need one side to surrender to end a war.

A group like hamas cannot functionally surrender. Nor does it have any incentive to.

Why can't hamas surrender? Why would you grant hamas exception to basic actions such as laying down arms?

Of course hamas can surrender. It involves dropping weapons, raising hands, and submitting to the forces who have you out-gunned. That's how surrendering works.

Surrendering and releasing hostages would go a long way towards the peace that so many want.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#899

Post by Levitz »

midasuni wrote: post #526
Levitz wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When you're on the side of women and children, who lose in every conflict, everyone else gets confused because they expect you to pick one of the men's teams. So men don't lose in every conflict? Countries are "men's teams"? I'm sorry but this is infantilizing as well as brutally sexist.

95% plus of the time the war is decided and progressed by men. Very few women in the Israeli government, and none making decisions in Hamas. Same in Venezuela and Guyana, Russia and Ukraine, Sudan etc etc

Ok. Say the war between Russia and Ukraine ends.

Regardless of who wins, does that country now have to cherish and celebrate the men for what they did?

Do we look at human progress overall as "something done by men"? Because the vast majority was done by men. Do we look at cities as things "made by men"?

You can't have it both ways. Women either take credit and responsibility for contributions to society or they don't. Very few women in governments which decided to give voting rights to women, very few making decisions. Is giving women the right to vote an achievement from men? It's ridiculous.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#900

Post by underdeserver »

wolverine876 wrote: post #304
edanm wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a common, but very flawed misunderstanding of the situation in Israel, by analogizing it to 9/11. (Many Israelis were pushing this narrative at the start of this, btw, but that doesn't make it true.) This wasn't just a terror attack, like 9/11 was. It was an invasion . Thousands of armed militants breached the border and invaded Israel, then killed more than a thousand Israelis. The militants were inside Isra…

> it was very unclear whether this would lead to a wider, joint attack by other forces as well I agree that it's easy to discuss rationally from the outside. Hamas is not a threat to Israeli existence. Without extensive and far superior outside help, Hamas could not hold a square meter of Israeli (non-Gazan) territory). Do you have insight into why Israelis talk about an "existential" war? I'm not dismissing their fe…

For one, during this war Israel has been fired upon from Gaza, Syria, Lebanon, and Yemen, with Iran pulling many of the strings behind the scenes. The combined strength of these countries is definitely an existential threat.

Aside from that, the borders with Gaza and Lebanon are unlivable. More than 100,000 Israelis are displaced from their homes.

The international community does not care that Hamas is continuously committing war crimes, with respect to hostages, firing rockets at civilian population centers, and using human shields. They do not care that Hezbollah is violating multiple UN security council resolutions, including first and foremost 1701. They do not care that Yemen is firing cruise missiles at Israel from 1500 miles away and hijacking freighters with loose or no ties to Israel.

All the world cares about is how many rockets you need to store and how many militants you need to harbor to qualify as a legitimate target for the IDF.

It absolutely is existential.

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