Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens • Hacker News Board

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#891

Post by LorenPechtel » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 5:25 PM UTC

jclardy wrote: post #743

bradgessler wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Physical buttons cleanly resolve all of these major problems > Given that with a physical button you didn't have to take your eyes off the road and given the tactile feedback you know for sure you activated/pressed/moved the control I never understand the "you don't have to look at buttons" argument—my car has lots of physical buttons and to push them, I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and pre…

Yeah - I do wonder if a giant touchscreen with permanent controls (Zero context switching) could be nearly as effective as a climate panel with fixed buttons. Part of the issue of a touchscreen in a car today is that every single view is context dependent, whereas a physical volume knob is always in the same spot, performing the same singular function. My chevy has fixed buttons/knobs, but the only one I don't have t…

It wouldn't work because you still have to use your eyes to guide you to the spot since it can't be done by touch.

A simple demonstration of this back from the 80s: My mother was blind. Along come microwave ovens with their flat control surfaces with push buttons behind. She had no way to find the buttons without inadvertently triggering wrong buttons. Labeling them would have been fine if she was alone but a problem with sighted people in the house. She solved it with a crude jig to let her locate buttons without applying pressure, but that was a two-handed operation that required concentration and still wouldn't work on a true touch screen.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#892

Post by hinkley » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 5:27 PM UTC

lisasays wrote: post #878

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #189

I wouldn't mind touchscreens as long as these imbecile developers would strictly limit UI response time to under 16ms. In no world where you're barrelling 3,000+ lbs of mass at tens of miles an hour should you be distracted by some moronic app or subsystem failing to respond in time because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." Any software running as a part of a motor vehicle should be federally…

I'd be curious as to where the magical 16ms figure comes from. Yeah, a single monitor refresh. But is that really needed for most UIs? these imbecile developers ... under-experienced software "engineers." Yes, I know we've all been conditioned by the relentless pecking order of this industry to direct our ire downwards and sideways, rather than where it belongs. But in my experience, at least 80 percent of the time t…

I spent a lot of time in my career directing it upward, but it's not wrong to blame your peers either.

Boundary setting is a two way street. There's a certain ratio of 'no' in your responses and if you don't hit it then you don't have a healthy relationship. And as the member of a group dynamic, you're letting down your peers.

But the real shocker was when I caught developers agreeing with me in philosophical discussions and then sitting around doing nothing when slack occurred in the schedule. It didn't occur to me that developers would agree with engineering philosophy only to appear high minded, and then defect when the cameras weren't rolling. Boy was that a hard (and angry) week.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#893

Post by hinkley » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 5:31 PM UTC

hilbert42 wrote: post #406

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #189

I wouldn't mind touchscreens as long as these imbecile developers would strictly limit UI response time to under 16ms. In no world where you're barrelling 3,000+ lbs of mass at tens of miles an hour should you be distracted by some moronic app or subsystem failing to respond in time because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." Any software running as a part of a motor vehicle should be federally…

"That physical button that takes 500ms to respond is still as dangerous" No it's not. With mechanical buttons you have tactile feedback, that is you don't have to look except in the broadest sense to get the general direction. Tactile feedback not only tells you that you have the correct position but also lets you know when the job is complete. That's why rotary potentiometers with knobs make much better volume contr…

I have a memory from the 90's of sitting in someone's car and fiddling with the ventilation system. The blower would take seconds to respond to changes of the fan speed dial. I don't know if that was electronic or if the fan blade was made out of depleted uranium. I know it was distracting, which is not something you want in a cabin control system.

Luckily I was just the passenger. If I'd have been driving that car my distraction level would be higher until I got used to it. You don't want people crashing in general, but crashing their brand new cars is ugly.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#894

Post by LorenPechtel » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 5:31 PM UTC

itsoktocry wrote: post #638

tp34 wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you need to look at your computer mouse to "click" the button(s)? Assuming you possess this basic competence, I find myself wondering how you managed to purchase a vehicle with such absurd ergonomics. You have a strange, poorly designed vehicle This "big dashboard full of buttons." Please provide a picture. Is this a custom design? "For me, when things get dangerous, its [sic] when pressing the button (physical or…

> What actions are you referring to? Changing the audio volume? The interior fan speed? This entire thread has me wondering the same thing. I've owned many cars and drive far more than average. What are y'all adjusting so much that's causing issues here? If we exclude infotainment, which even the best have lousy driving ergonomics, you need to be able to turn wipers on/off (most are automatic now), turn the HVAC up o…

Cruise control.

HVAC--it does not compensate for ambient sunlight. What I want while driving in the sun is very different than what I want driving at night.

I do not have automatic wipers or lights. I have driven cars with automatic lights and I found them wanting.

Volume.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#895

Post by hinkley » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 5:32 PM UTC

jkarneges wrote: post #242

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #189

I wouldn't mind touchscreens as long as these imbecile developers would strictly limit UI response time to under 16ms. In no world where you're barrelling 3,000+ lbs of mass at tens of miles an hour should you be distracted by some moronic app or subsystem failing to respond in time because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." Any software running as a part of a motor vehicle should be federally…

> That physical button that takes 500ms to respond is still as dangerous. My Volt's physical mute button seems to be software controlled. Normally it is very responsive, except when the car is starting up. It kills me whenever I start the car and the volume happened to be cranked up from earlier, music blasts, and the mute button is ineffective. Fortunately the volume knob seems to be hardware controlled and can be u…

Going from audiobook on one trip to radio on the next sure wakes me up, and not in a good way. At least I have a physical volume dial with a power button in it.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#896

Post by hinkley » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 5:33 PM UTC

HWR_14 wrote: post #278

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #189

I wouldn't mind touchscreens as long as these imbecile developers would strictly limit UI response time to under 16ms. In no world where you're barrelling 3,000+ lbs of mass at tens of miles an hour should you be distracted by some moronic app or subsystem failing to respond in time because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." Any software running as a part of a motor vehicle should be federally…

> That physical button that takes 500ms to respond is still as dangerous. It doesn't matter if it takes 1 second for the radio to change stations. The problem with delays is me spending 500 ms trying to get the buttons to react. When I touch a physical button, I instantly know I did.

You have confirmation affordances. "We have received your request and will get back to you shortly"

Of course, if the button is sometimes ignored, that undermines the affordance and people learn not to trust it.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#897

Post by 93po » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 5:35 PM UTC

riverdweller wrote: post #454

Tesla unilaterally decided to push out a refactored UI to my old Model S a few months ago, changing the location of numerous functions to new sub-menu paths, and rendering years of muscle memory useless. Not only do I have to re-learn where everything is, but older memories interfere and confuse every time I try to access an infrequently used function. This experience has been irritating at best. It has felt extremel…

I'd recommend focusing on driving instead of messing with settings if it feels extremely unsafe.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#898

Post by lisasays » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 5:36 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #892

lisasays wrote: post #878

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be curious as to where the magical 16ms figure comes from. Yeah, a single monitor refresh. But is that really needed for most UIs? these imbecile developers ... under-experienced software "engineers." Yes, I know we've all been conditioned by the relentless pecking order of this industry to direct our ire downwards and sideways, rather than where it belongs. But in my experience, at least 80 percent of the time t…

I spent a lot of time in my career directing it upward, but it's not wrong to blame your peers either. Boundary setting is a two way street. There's a certain ratio of 'no' in your responses and if you don't hit it then you don't have a healthy relationship. And as the member of a group dynamic, you're letting down your peers. But the real shocker was when I caught developers agreeing with me in philosophical discuss…

Oh sure - there are definitely morale and trust issues. Even (and sometimes especially) among otherwise smart and capable people.

Vastly more common (and destructive) than simple incompetence, I have sadly come to find.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#899

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 5:40 PM UTC

pnw wrote: post #274

testfoobar wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Touch screens are also pretty terrible for older people. Vision and fine motor skills both degenerate. Without tactile feedback, it is hard for older people to determine if they've successfully clicked on something. Gestures can be tough to teach and successfully implement without error.

I agree with you on the tactile angle, but the Tesla touch screen offers larger font sizes for people with presbyopia which is something that physical controls cannot offer.

[deleted]

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#900

Post by hinkley » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 5:41 PM UTC

lisasays wrote: post #898

hinkley wrote: post #892

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent a lot of time in my career directing it upward, but it's not wrong to blame your peers either. Boundary setting is a two way street. There's a certain ratio of 'no' in your responses and if you don't hit it then you don't have a healthy relationship. And as the member of a group dynamic, you're letting down your peers. But the real shocker was when I caught developers agreeing with me in philosophical discuss…

Oh sure - there are definitely morale and trust issues. Even (and sometimes especially) among otherwise smart and capable people. Vastly more common (and destructive) than simple incompetence, I have sadly come to find.

"Groomed for failure" is one of the oldest engineering terms I stole from someone else. There's a definite "drive it like you stole it" mentality among managers about how to get work out of devs. I've never had much luck with Burnout and Replace. Building momentum by getting better at writing code (not better at taking shortcuts) has a lot going for it but seems hippy dippy to some people.

I was just thinking this morning that Ted Lasso may make it easier for some of us to try again to reintroduce some of these concepts.