Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

891–900 of 1001 posts

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#891

Post by trashtester »

kcb wrote: post #738
vkou wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Similarly, had NATO deployed 500k soldiers fully armed with modern weaponry in Poland, Lithuania and Rumania as Putin was building up his forces, and added a warning that Ukraine would be granted instant membership to NATO if he didn't pull back from the border, he probably would have pulled back from the border. Had NATO forces been deployed in Ukraine four months ago, nobody would be making any nuclear threats to…

NATO forces don't deploy in a foreign country. That's not how it works.

Nato members have deployed in plenty of foreign countries since 1949. Had Nato countries had the strength and will, they would have been able to provide plenty of deterence against the aggression we are seeing today, even if the situation isn't strictly covered by the Nato treaty.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#892

Post by picsao »

jacquesm wrote: post #757
pvorb wrote: post #728

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since joining NATO is a process rather than will happen immediately, this is not really an option. This caused the mess the Ukraine is in in the first place. Putin is really clear that he won't tolerate NATO to expand to any more direct neighbors.

Effectively he did just that, now he has NATO bordering him on one more side and a buffer state is eradicated.

No post body was provided.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#893

Post by dtx1 »

hef19898 wrote: post #861
dtx1 wrote: post #839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just another cowardly work around. If we want to live under the protection of weapons of mass destruction and the means of a global nuclear holocaust than we should take on that responsibility ourselves instead of delegating it to the US, Britain and France.

You are aware that Gean rearmament, conventional rearmament, was a hard pill for the Western allies to swallow? Let alone nukes? And Strauss, defense minister back the day, wanted German nukes. Turned he didn't get a majority for that. Thus, the compromise. And hence no German nukes. Technically it wouldn't have that much of a problem.

I think today the resistance is much more on the side of the german people than it would be for the western allies. France basically told us "bro, wanna share those nukes we got?" in 2007 and Germany declined.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#894

Post by dtx1 »

hutrdvnj wrote: post #851
dtx1 wrote: post #839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just another cowardly work around. If we want to live under the protection of weapons of mass destruction and the means of a global nuclear holocaust than we should take on that responsibility ourselves instead of delegating it to the US, Britain and France.

What do you suggest? ICBM launch silos in Germany and hypersonic missile launchers?

Accepting Frances offer of shared custody of the french nuclear arsenal and a Bundeswehr (german armed forces) with enough technical and personal resources to facilitate that effectively.

ICBM launch silos and hypersonic missiles would be icing on the cake.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#895

Post by ajdegol »

captainmuon wrote: post #863
dudeinhawaii wrote: post #428

I'm genuinely curious at what point a bully threatening you with MAD can be stopped if you value the existence of your own civilization? Say Russian conquers all of Ukraine and moves troops to the Polish border and parks some tanks a bit inside. What then? Strongly worded essays? If Russia isn't raining hell on Poland, then NATO is forced to .. apply sanctions, make threats, but take no action since the escalation an…

Yes, I think we are seeing the breakdown of nuclear deterrence. Because it does nothing to stop Putin from attacking allied (non-NATO) states, but it deterrs the west from intervening. I think at some point people will realize that MAD is a huge bluff. Because when you see the nuclear bombs flying, there is nothing you can do anymore to win the war. The only thing that you can do is to prevent the loss of more lives…

Mate, if some other country kills me and all my family and friends, then absolutely fuck them, I'll smash that launch button. Logic, and us all, be damned.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#896

Post by csomar »

DocTomoe wrote: post #857
beloch wrote: post #703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine is not a NATO member, but Poland is. If Russia attacks a member of NATO then all members of NATO are obligated to join in defence militarily . Russia can attack non-NATO countries and intimidate NATO into doing nothing, but to attack a NATO member would automatically bring the whole alliance into the war. The whole point of alliances like NATO is to prevent countries from being picked off by a bully the way U…

> If Russia attacks a member of NATO then all members of NATO are obligated to join in defence militarily. That's what is commonly believed, but that belief is actually wrong - other NATO members are obligated to - and I quote directly from Article 5 here - "(...) assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, includi…

Turkey will be in a sweet spot. They can do lots of damage to Russian navy with little intervention from them required. NATO has lots of bargaining power if it decides to do so. It seems more like a lack of leadership than of resources or power.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#897

Post by baybal2 »

egeozcan wrote: post #826
wahern wrote: post #730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Talk of Ukraine joining NATO may well have been what triggered this war. There was zero chance Ukraine would have ever been admitted to NATO. Everybody understood that, including Putin and his generals. And while NATO and the U.S. maintained the official position (perhaps better characterized as a non-position) that any country, including Ukraine, remained free to apply to NATO, member states like Germany would hav…

> Moreover, the last decade of shenanigans from Turkey and then Hungary have soured even the U.S.'s appetite for future NATO admissions of any country outside Western and Central Europe. This was always the case. Turkey needed to help in Korea (1950) to get into NATO (1952). With annexation of half the Cyprus, and the tensions with Greece and buying NATO-incompatible S400 defense missiles from Russia, it kept being a…

> This was always the case. Turkey needed to help in Korea (1950) to get into NATO (1952). With annexation of half the Cyprus, and the tensions with Greece and buying NATO-incompatible S400 defense missiles from Russia, it kept being a problem-child. It weirdly remains also the only member which recently had armed conflict against Russia.

Turkey was completely blackhanded as a military ally by NATO, long before Erdogun. NATO made an extremely costly error of accommodating the Greek junta, and later closing eyes on Cyprus.

By all reasonable judgement, NATO should've backed Turkey, and not Greece, but they did it the other way around.

If not for that, it wouldn't have set seeds of doubt which lead to the situation you see now, and probably would've averted the 1980 coup.

Turkey has NATO's most powerful conventional military on this side of the Atlantic, second NATO army by size, and conventional firepower after the USA.

Macaron trying to intimidate Turkey, and marginalise Turkey's NATO role in this day, and age is absurd, and suicidal. Turkey leaving NATO = say bye bye half of NATO's conventional force on this side of the Atlantic. Turkey's troops could not be replaced by ANY NATO member since USA is already overstretched.

I could've added much more strong words.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#898

Post by AussieWog93 »

aksss wrote: post #557
DubiousPusher wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is absolutely no precedent in human history for two fairly equal powers engaging in a conflict and one side refusing in totality to use almost any weapon at its disposal and certainly not one that an enemy has already used. Japan did not nuke America back in 1945 because it did not have a nuke and had lost all air superiority.

I may get downvoted into oblivion for saying this, but -- I think it's wishful thinking to imagine soldiers will make the 'right' decision when the call comes. During the Tiananmen Square debacle/massacre, interviews with people there indicate that many/most never imagined the "people's" army would act against them - they were considered on the same side. Yet act against them they did. Similarly, I think you see some…

>During the Tiananmen Square debacle/massacre, interviews with people there indicate that many/most never imagined the "people's" army would act against them - they were considered on the same side.

I don't think even Tiananmen is quite as cut-and-dry as you're making it out.

There were at least half a dozen generals who risked execution to publicly oppose the attack, and many of the commanders instructed their soldiers not to open fire on the crowds. The insubordination went down to the level of the individual soldier, and if more than a tiny minority of soldiers (namely the 27th army) had actually, genuinely been following orders then the casualties would be orders of magnitude higher than they were.

At least that's what I've heard from people who witnessed it.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#899

Post by cutemonster »

hef19898 wrote: post #875
sterlind wrote: post #872

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope the people at the top love their children too..

I'm sure most do. The problem is that they stop there.

Putin's brain cannot feel such feelings (like love) at all

since he is a psychopath (Machiavellian, more precisely)

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#900

Post by cutemonster »

ed_balls wrote: post #790
interfixus wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that particular Russian is in fact an all-out psychopath, this concept may not apply.

but people around him are not.

His closest few men likely are, I think. Or most of them
Post reply on HN