Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case • Hacker News Board

Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#891

Post by skohan » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 11:32 AM UTC

nutanc wrote: post #444

sudhirj wrote: post #223

Think Apple has already seen the writing on the wall - both S. Korea & the US are now probably going to push back against the IAP restrictions, and they can / should do a couple of things, which might actually increase revenue. 1. Cut down the IAP commission to 15% for everyone. 2. Cut down the commission to 5% for those who pay for a Business Account, say at $5,000 a year. The thing is no customer wants to use any c…

It's not just that. As a developer I wouldn't want Apple to know who my paying customers are. Right now, there is no option. With this hopefully there will be more options.

Why not? Not that I think it's an unreasonable position, but there's generally going to be some payment processor who knows who your paying customers are, right?

Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#892

Post by chillage » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 11:36 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #779

chillage wrote: post #776

There is a point here which really confuses me. This is an order by a California district judge. So that means it must only be valid in California? So Apple is allowed to keep its practices outside of that state? Or if not, then how can a California decision apply outside of the state? And why do none of the articles on this topic address this point?

> This is an order by a California district judge. No, its an order by a federal district judge in California ; specifically, a judge of the US District Court for the Northern District of California. (Media reports often use sloppy language which confuses federal courts located in a state with courts of a state.) > So that means it must only be valid in California? No. > Or if not, then how can a California decision…

Oh ok thank you for the explanation, that does clear it up. So this decision applies to the US (though maybe not outside the US)

Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#893

Post by yyyk » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 12:04 PM UTC

paulmd wrote: post #780

yyyk wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple doesn't need to monopolize payment to centralize subscription cancellation. More importantly, Apple's fee structure prefers cheaper trashy apps over expansive to produce quality apps. I hope users will feel the difference with an overall better app selection. Example: Apple takes a flat 30% fee while Stripe takes (IIRC) 0.3 + Y% (when Y much lower than 30). So a cheap app will pay the same or less with Apple, b…

There is absolutely no causal mechanism where reducing fees by 5-10% will magically produce an improvement in app quality and variety.

It's called 'incentives'. Not a difficult concept, admittedly a bit foreign to the centrally managed iOS ecosystem.

Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#894

Post by arihant » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 12:07 PM UTC

sudhirj wrote: post #223

Think Apple has already seen the writing on the wall - both S. Korea & the US are now probably going to push back against the IAP restrictions, and they can / should do a couple of things, which might actually increase revenue. 1. Cut down the IAP commission to 15% for everyone. 2. Cut down the commission to 5% for those who pay for a Business Account, say at $5,000 a year. The thing is no customer wants to use any c…

One of App Store's biggest draw for any developer is that they are compliant with VAT/GST of multiple countries. With Europe's MOSS now gone, I can't imagine individual app developers hiring an EU rep just so they can comply with EU VAT legally. And that's just EU. You can't even easily comply with Indian GST without incorporating a subsidiary there. Now Canada is also in the mix. And those are just 3 regions. US Sales Tax is another money pit, with proper compliance costing hundreds of dollars per month for each state you develop nexus in.

Add to that the fact that App Store purchases are riddled with fake cards and usually draw a much higher MDR from merchant accounts. If people are rejoicing that they can just hook up their Stripe and world will be rainbows, they are in for a shut down email pretty soon.

Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#895

Post by yyyk » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 12:07 PM UTC

dodobirdlord wrote: post #636

yyyk wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Apple's IAP makes it incredibly simple to cancel service. This doesn't require Apple's payment monopoly. IAP would just need to make an API call to some 3rd party API. Besides did everyone forget they can call their credit card issuer and suspend payment?

> Besides did everyone forget they can call their credit card issuer and suspend payment? This does not get you out of your contractual obligation to pay, if you have one. You could end up getting an annoying surprise from a debt collection agency a few years down the road. An important thing that Apple was able to provide that a credit card processor suspending payment can’t is to force the vendor to let you actuall…

Apple can't remove contractual obligations either. Any subscription which requires serious amount of money (enough to make a lawsuit worthwhile) should be very carefully managed.

Otherwise calling collections is a very bad deal for the vendor who will be penalized by the credit company and by the courts and by bad PR.

Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#896

Post by yyyk » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 12:10 PM UTC

l33tman wrote: post #886

pstrateman wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cancelled mine by sending them an email stating that I would be disputing every charge. The reply email I got was at 9:07am EST, 'dispute' probably automatically puts your email head of queue for them.

Seems like the right strategy. A chargeback request automatically implies a $25 fee for the merchant if I remember correctly (read this on Braintree long ago). I'd expect any merchant will want to avoid disputes/chargeback requests like the plague. Take this with a grain of salt, it seems excessive, I should probably have looked it up again :) But there definitely is some kind of strong incentive for merchants to avo…

It's not just the direct chargeback fee - too many chargebacks and the credit card companies will start actively penalizing you with higher fees overall and more declines and more 3DS verification requests.

Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#897

Post by tristor » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 12:23 PM UTC

motogpjimbo wrote: post #870

baxtr wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a WSJ subscription which I couldn’t cancel online. You have to call them, wait in line and then let them talk you into another free month and stuff. A bad experience. It was so annoying I just gave up until my CC was locked. This experience was definitely more expensive than using Apple’s services.

How does this work for deaf or hearing impaired users? Surely even in the US there must be a way to cancel a subscription without having to speak to someone on the phone?

Generally in the US, if a company is large enough they will provide a TTS number, otherwise you can call via a TTS “gateway”, many of which are provided free of charge by various government entities or by the phone company.

When you call via a TTS gateway, a certified transcriptionist for the deaf or (now) a computer program that does speech recognition will transcribe what is said by the other party to text so you can read it and speak out loud what you type exactly. There’s quite a few regulations around this service, although I’m sure it’s developed since I last looked into it.

There are also special phones or phone apps many deaf people have that do live captioning. CaptionCall is one common brand.

Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#898

Post by Andrew_nenakhov » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 12:30 PM UTC

yurishimo wrote: post #15

I'm really happy to see this moving forward, but I loathe the potential future landscape. Every fortune 500 is going to immediately pivot to their own IAP options which will make my life harder compared to Apple Pay. I'm hoping with this movement, tools like Stripe/Paddle will develop some better IAP flows to make it as easy as possible. Adding my card information to 50 different in-app wallets does not sound appeali…

I'd prefer allowing apple to do whatever they want in their appstore, and forcing them to accept third party app installation, including alternative stores

Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#899

Post by ben_w » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 12:48 PM UTC

Mavvie wrote: post #838

IX-103 wrote: post #794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't get me started on XM. Starting the second year after I bought a car they were calling me several times a week. It took a few years of "No" and blocking any number in my area code that isn't in my contacts (my phone number is not local) for it to stop. Then I brought my car to the dealership to have some recall handled, and the calls have started again....

I wonder if you'd get put on a block list if you answer the call but play a train horn into the phone every time instead of talking

That sounds like it would primarily impact the low-paid worker on the other end of the line rather than alter company policy.

Instead I suggest playing back a pre-recorded sales pitch for a relevant trade union: The workers won’t suffer from bleeding ears and the bosses might actually care.

Re: Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

#900

Post by gandalfian » Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

baxtr wrote: post #572

acdha wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll get no argument from me that Apple's system is pretty good from a consumer standpoint — that's the primary reason why I predicted that it'd remain popular. It's really nice knowing that you can nuke a subscription without getting some dark patterns trying to talk you out of it. On the other hand, it's really easy to imagine that you'd see something like “$9.99 IAP; $7.99 direct from Epic/Amazon/Google/Netflix/…

I had a WSJ subscription which I couldn’t cancel online. You have to call them, wait in line and then let them talk you into another free month and stuff. A bad experience. It was so annoying I just gave up until my CC was locked. This experience was definitely more expensive than using Apple’s services.

My mother can trump that. Her VOLUNTARY subscription donation to the guardian was messed up and again could only be cancelled by phone despite signing up online. Dialing through the phone tree eventually connected cancellations to the NHS blood delivery service, really, I kid you not. They were very polite but equally bemused. Eventually sorted but way to drive away a donor.